'Nobody wants a felony for just trying to teach': Duval teachers call school book law 'vague'

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Aletheia
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Momto2boys973 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:00 am teaching about controversial topics is something that they would rather do at home.
I'd rather something got taught both at home and at school, than it got taught at neither.


How many parents who don't want their children to hear that homosexuality even exists, when at school, would you trust to provide a sufficiently comprehensive coverage of the subject in the home that, if their child does turn out to be homosexual they don't end up traumatised (or, worse yet, commit suicide) ?
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I’m thinking that a parent who doesn’t want their kids to even know that homosexuality exists wouldn’t be sending those kids to public school to begin with. Because as many books as they try to ban, the kids will be exposed to the fact in other ways. So I don’t think that’s the issue here.
The issue here is teaching kids about what’s right and moral and what isn’t and I do think those are things that parents should do. School can teach the facts. It can even promote debate. But the school has no place telling my child what’s right and what’s wrong. That’s my responsibility and right as a parent. And that goes both ways when it comes to sexual orientation and identity. I will teach my children what I think is right and moral and if other parents want to teach something different, it’s none of my business. And it’s definitely not the school’s prerogative to take it upon themselves to teach a child that their parents’ teachings are wrong. Again- for both sides.
Aletheia wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:17 pm
Momto2boys973 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:00 am teaching about controversial topics is something that they would rather do at home.
I'd rather something got taught both at home and at school, than it got taught at neither.


How many parents who don't want their children to hear that homosexuality even exists, when at school, would you trust to provide a sufficiently comprehensive coverage of the subject in the home that, if their child does turn out to be homosexual they don't end up traumatised (or, worse yet, commit suicide) ?
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Momto2boys973 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:54 am I’m thinking that a parent who doesn’t want their kids to even know that homosexuality exists wouldn’t be sending those kids to public school to begin with. Because as many books as they try to ban, the kids will be exposed to the fact in other ways. So I don’t think that’s the issue here.
The issue here is teaching kids about what’s right and moral and what isn’t and I do think those are things that parents should do. School can teach the facts. It can even promote debate. But the school has no place telling my child what’s right and what’s wrong. That’s my responsibility and right as a parent. And that goes both ways when it comes to sexual orientation and identity. I will teach my children what I think is right and moral and if other parents want to teach something different, it’s none of my business. And it’s definitely not the school’s prerogative to take it upon themselves to teach a child that their parents’ teachings are wrong. Again- for both sides.
Aletheia wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:17 pm
Momto2boys973 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:00 am teaching about controversial topics is something that they would rather do at home.
I'd rather something got taught both at home and at school, than it got taught at neither.


How many parents who don't want their children to hear that homosexuality even exists, when at school, would you trust to provide a sufficiently comprehensive coverage of the subject in the home that, if their child does turn out to be homosexual they don't end up traumatised (or, worse yet, commit suicide) ?
If a school removes all material containing representation of the LBGTQ community but leaves material containing representation of the hetero cis-gender community, aren't they in fact making a moral statement just by omission?
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I believe we are moving in the same direction in my state. I get an email every time my child checks out "mature material" but I've looked at the books I get the emails about and I don't see anything concerning. One of them, I'm pretty sure was on the list because it was a sci-fi/fantasy novel about magic, like Harry Potter. I wish I had never opted into those emails. They come from the library but teachers are supposed to do the same thing when a child "checks out" a book from their school library. Most teachers don't have time for something like this, so they simply got rid of their classroom library. With so much of our population being only functionally literate, and our literacy rates hovering around 79% for years, I feel pretty strongly that this is not the right move.
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newyearnewring wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:58 pm Most teachers don't have time for something like this, so they simply got rid of their classroom library.
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Momto2boys973 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:54 am I’m thinking that a parent who doesn’t want their kids to even know that homosexuality exists wouldn’t be sending those kids to public school to begin with. Because as many books as they try to ban, the kids will be exposed to the fact in other ways. So I don’t think that’s the issue here.
The issue here is teaching kids about what’s right and moral and what isn’t and I do think those are things that parents should do. School can teach the facts. It can even promote debate. But the school has no place telling my child what’s right and what’s wrong.
I think schools should be teaching what was considered right or moral in various times and places, including the society where the school is and at the present time.

I think schools should be teaching what's legal versus illegal, what will be accepted by their employer's human resources departments, what the current academic consensus is.

And, where there's biological evidence that's relevant, that could also be taught. (or, indeed, evidence from suicide statistics, academic surveys, etc).

And, for that matter, a school should be teaching what the school considers to be acceptable behaviour by pupils while at the school.


Just because a school shouldn't go as far as proclaiming "It is wrong to take drugs!" (or, for that matter, "It is right to take drugs!"), that doesn't mean they can weight in on the social issue.
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Lemons wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:29 pm This is a recap of the book Tango Makes Three. A true story of penguins in the Central Park Zoo

The story opens in the Central Park Zoo, a place that houses families of all different kinds. Soon, it is the time of year when all the chinstrap penguins couple up. All of the couples have one female penguin and one male penguin except for Roy and Silo, two male penguins who have fallen in love. They do everything together: they sing, swim, and even build a nest so that they can start a family. The two penguins take turns sitting on a rock, thinking that it is an egg. The zookeeper, Mr. Gramsay, notices this and he brings them an extra egg from another penguin couple who would not be able to care for it. Roy and Silo sit on their egg and take care of it until it hatches. The zookeepers name the female chick Tango. People cheer when they come to visit the zoo and see Tango with her two fathers. The story ends by reiterating that Roy, Silo, and Tango are a happy family and that families can look different.[10


I don’t know how a six year old could take anything sexual out of the story. It’s science. Lions, dolphins and other animals have homosexual interactions. But six year olds won’t see anything sexual about these penguins or other animals. They lay eggs pair up and need to protect it until it’s born.
The terminology used transfers human attributes/emotions to animals. Calling them a "couple", saying they "fell in love", etc. Reads as an attempt to teach gender/sexuality to K-3 children which violates Florida law. Older people know not to automatically assign human motivations to animals. Birds can pair bond with any gender, especially in captivity. I have 2 female parakeets who groom each other, it doesn't mean they're lesbians and its likely they would have chosen males in the wild. BTW, dolphins have been known to hump humans, a pervert man actually had a "sexual relationship" with a dolphin he claims pursued HIM and wrote a book about it, and male dolphins gang rape female dolphins, keeping them captive for days. Many animals commit infanticide and cannibalism. Animal behavior should not determine whats normal human behavior by default. Teaching children this very one-sided perspective that animals are just like a humans is what makes it indoctrination.

I do think its interesting that they use animals in captivity, out of their natural environment, where zookeepers have to intervene to make them parents as an example of how "normal" homosexual relationships are in the animal kingdom. Would 2 male penguins steal an egg from female penguin in the wild? I don't think so. So natural selection would ensure these male penguins never reproduce nor rear a chick to learn their behavior. Maybe the rise in LGBT numbers is a social/artificially induced phenomenon. Thats what I take away from the book.
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SwellDame wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:26 pm
Lemons wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:29 pm This is a recap of the book Tango Makes Three. A true story of penguins in the Central Park Zoo

The story opens in the Central Park Zoo, a place that houses families of all different kinds. Soon, it is the time of year when all the chinstrap penguins couple up. All of the couples have one female penguin and one male penguin except for Roy and Silo, two male penguins who have fallen in love. They do everything together: they sing, swim, and even build a nest so that they can start a family. The two penguins take turns sitting on a rock, thinking that it is an egg. The zookeeper, Mr. Gramsay, notices this and he brings them an extra egg from another penguin couple who would not be able to care for it. Roy and Silo sit on their egg and take care of it until it hatches. The zookeepers name the female chick Tango. People cheer when they come to visit the zoo and see Tango with her two fathers. The story ends by reiterating that Roy, Silo, and Tango are a happy family and that families can look different.[10


I don’t know how a six year old could take anything sexual out of the story. It’s science. Lions, dolphins and other animals have homosexual interactions. But six year olds won’t see anything sexual about these penguins or other animals. They lay eggs pair up and need to protect it until it’s born.
The terminology used transfers human attributes/emotions to animals. Calling them a "couple", saying they "fell in love", etc. Reads as an attempt to teach gender/sexuality to K-3 children which violates Florida law. Older people know not to automatically assign human motivations to animals. Birds can pair bond with any gender, especially in captivity. I have 2 female parakeets who groom each other, it doesn't mean they're lesbians and its likely they would have chosen males in the wild. BTW, dolphins have been known to hump humans, a pervert man actually had a "sexual relationship" with a dolphin he claims pursued HIM and wrote a book about it, and male dolphins gang rape female dolphins, keeping them captive for days. Many animals commit infanticide and cannibalism. Animal behavior should not determine whats normal human behavior by default. Teaching children this very one-sided perspective that animals are just like a humans is what makes it indoctrination.

I do think its interesting that they use animals in captivity, out of their natural environment, where zookeepers have to intervene to make them parents as an example of how "normal" homosexual relationships are in the animal kingdom. Would 2 male penguins steal an egg from female penguin in the wild? I don't think so. So natural selection would ensure these male penguins never reproduce nor rear a chick to learn their behavior. Maybe the rise in LGBT numbers is a social/artificially induced phenomenon. Thats what I take away from the book.
Do the Berenstain Bears need to also be banned? By this logic, pretending that a mother, father, brother and sister, who model a heterosexual parent-headed family of bears who love each other would also be “very one-sided perspective that animals are just like a humans” and therefore indoctrination. Also, is any fairy tale or book about, say, a prince and princess being a couple and falling in love also on the chopping block because it would also be teaching “gender/sexuality”?

And Tango Makes Three is based on real life penguins, but it’s simply a fictional book - like countless other children’s books - that uses animal characters to teach children about life lessons and the world in general. In this case, it would just be that different types of families exist: https://assets2.hrc.org/welcoming-schoo ... _Three.pdf
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SwellDame wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:26 pm
Lemons wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:29 pm This is a recap of the book Tango Makes Three. A true story of penguins in the Central Park Zoo

The story opens in the Central Park Zoo, a place that houses families of all different kinds. Soon, it is the time of year when all the chinstrap penguins couple up. All of the couples have one female penguin and one male penguin except for Roy and Silo, two male penguins who have fallen in love. They do everything together: they sing, swim, and even build a nest so that they can start a family. The two penguins take turns sitting on a rock, thinking that it is an egg. The zookeeper, Mr. Gramsay, notices this and he brings them an extra egg from another penguin couple who would not be able to care for it. Roy and Silo sit on their egg and take care of it until it hatches. The zookeepers name the female chick Tango. People cheer when they come to visit the zoo and see Tango with her two fathers. The story ends by reiterating that Roy, Silo, and Tango are a happy family and that families can look different.[10


I don’t know how a six year old could take anything sexual out of the story. It’s science. Lions, dolphins and other animals have homosexual interactions. But six year olds won’t see anything sexual about these penguins or other animals. They lay eggs pair up and need to protect it until it’s born.
The terminology used transfers human attributes/emotions to animals. Calling them a "couple", saying they "fell in love", etc. Reads as an attempt to teach gender/sexuality to K-3 children which violates Florida law. Older people know not to automatically assign human motivations to animals. Birds can pair bond with any gender, especially in captivity. I have 2 female parakeets who groom each other, it doesn't mean they're lesbians and its likely they would have chosen males in the wild. BTW, dolphins have been known to hump humans, a pervert man actually had a "sexual relationship" with a dolphin he claims pursued HIM and wrote a book about it, and male dolphins gang rape female dolphins, keeping them captive for days. Many animals commit infanticide and cannibalism. Animal behavior should not determine whats normal human behavior by default. Teaching children this very one-sided perspective that animals are just like a humans is what makes it indoctrination.

I do think its interesting that they use animals in captivity, out of their natural environment, where zookeepers have to intervene to make them parents as an example of how "normal" homosexual relationships are in the animal kingdom. Would 2 male penguins steal an egg from female penguin in the wild? I don't think so. So natural selection would ensure these male penguins never reproduce nor rear a chick to learn their behavior. Maybe the rise in LGBT numbers is a social/artificially induced phenomenon. Thats what I take away from the book.
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