'Nobody wants a felony for just trying to teach': Duval teachers call school book law 'vague'

[Francee89]

It's really not that hard. But the drama plays well.

What do you mean by "it". What are you referring to? Did they specify what books need to be removed to make it easier on teachers? Have they actually clearly defined "questionable content"? What happens if a parent complains? The phrase: "Require book selections to be free of pornography and prohibited materials harmful to minors, suited to student needs, and appropriate for the grade level and age group" is far too vague.

Quick question: if teachers don't have a grasp on those things, how have they been preparing lesson plans for their classes all of these years? Aren't lesson plans supposed to be geared toward grade level and age group?

Not quite sure what's vague about appropriate for grade level and age group. Definitely not seeing what's vague about keeping porn out of the classroom. I mean, no porn in school sounds kind of basic to me. Like a bare minimum thing that a teacher should be doing. Maybe it's just me though.

One book that’s been banned in another district is “And Tango Makes Three”, a children’s book about real same S*x penguins who raised a baby penguin together: https://www.fox13news.com/news/florida- ... on-law.amp

Every site I’ve seen says it’s in the range of a first grade reading level: http://readingtokids.org/Books/BookView ... D=00001189

The illustrations or wording certainly aren’t pornographic. The only reason it’s banned is that it’s about an LGBT family, which is a family structure students in these classes might have. Teachers can have a perfect grasp on what they or the average person would consider “free of pornography and prohibited materials harmful to minors, suited to student needs, and appropriate for the grade level and age group” and still have to remove these books out of fear of legal consequences from very conservative parents who’ll complain about a book with perfectly age appropriate, non-pornographic content because it features something as simple as gay characters.

[Momto2boys973]

Well, it doesn’t take a genius to understand that it is a controversial topic, whether or not we like it. And for many parents, teaching about controversial topics is something that they would rather do at home. School is meant to teach children facts, figures and numbers, especially in the early years. It’s not the place to give children of multicultural backgrounds morality lessons.
I do agree that at later ages they should be taught critical analysis, learning to analyze, debate and defend their views and opinions accordingly.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with how they’re handling this. But TBH, it seems both sides are very determined to silence the other.

What do you mean by "it". What are you referring to? Did they specify what books need to be removed to make it easier on teachers? Have they actually clearly defined "questionable content"? What happens if a parent complains? The phrase: "Require book selections to be free of pornography and prohibited materials harmful to minors, suited to student needs, and appropriate for the grade level and age group" is far too vague.

Quick question: if teachers don't have a grasp on those things, how have they been preparing lesson plans for their classes all of these years? Aren't lesson plans supposed to be geared toward grade level and age group?

Not quite sure what's vague about appropriate for grade level and age group. Definitely not seeing what's vague about keeping porn out of the classroom. I mean, no porn in school sounds kind of basic to me. Like a bare minimum thing that a teacher should be doing. Maybe it's just me though.

One book that’s been banned in another district is “And Tango Makes Three”, a children’s book about real same S*x penguins who raised a baby penguin together: https://www.fox13news.com/news/florida- ... on-law.amp

Every site I’ve seen says it’s in the range of a first grade reading level: http://readingtokids.org/Books/BookView ... D=00001189

The illustrations or wording certainly aren’t pornographic. The only reason it’s banned is that it’s about an LGBT family, which is a family structure students in these classes might have. Teachers can have a perfect grasp on what they or the average person would consider “free of pornography and prohibited materials harmful to minors, suited to student needs, and appropriate for the grade level and age group” and still have to remove these books out of fear of legal consequences from very conservative parents who’ll complain about a book with perfectly age appropriate, non-pornographic content because it features something as simple as gay characters.

[Francee89]

Well, it doesn’t take a genius to understand that it is a controversial topic, whether or not we like it. And for many parents, teaching about controversial topics is something that they would rather do at home. School is meant to teach children facts, figures and numbers, especially in the early years. It’s not the place to give children of multicultural backgrounds morality lessons.
I do agree that at later ages they should be taught critical analysis, learning to analyze, debate and defend their views and opinions accordingly.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with how they’re handling this. But TBH, it seems both sides are very determined to silence the other.

Quick question: if teachers don't have a grasp on those things, how have they been preparing lesson plans for their classes all of these years? Aren't lesson plans supposed to be geared toward grade level and age group?

Not quite sure what's vague about appropriate for grade level and age group. Definitely not seeing what's vague about keeping porn out of the classroom. I mean, no porn in school sounds kind of basic to me. Like a bare minimum thing that a teacher should be doing. Maybe it's just me though.

One book that’s been banned in another district is “And Tango Makes Three”, a children’s book about real same S*x penguins who raised a baby penguin together: https://www.fox13news.com/news/florida- ... on-law.amp

Every site I’ve seen says it’s in the range of a first grade reading level: http://readingtokids.org/Books/BookView ... D=00001189

The illustrations or wording certainly aren’t pornographic. The only reason it’s banned is that it’s about an LGBT family, which is a family structure students in these classes might have. Teachers can have a perfect grasp on what they or the average person would consider “free of pornography and prohibited materials harmful to minors, suited to student needs, and appropriate for the grade level and age group” and still have to remove these books out of fear of legal consequences from very conservative parents who’ll complain about a book with perfectly age appropriate, non-pornographic content because it features something as simple as gay characters.

Controversial doesn’t mean something is pornographic, age inappropriate or harmful to minors though. If the classroom has children of multicultural backgrounds, why should the library cater to those who don’t want their children to know LGBT-headed families exist vs. being inclusive of books depicting all families? Only one side is making teachers fearful of legal consequences for having books some parents may disagree with available as optional reading for students here.

[Momto2boys973]

No, but it may mean “not suited for the students’ needs”. That’s why people are saying this is vague. And IMHO, you can’t legislate or set punishments when you’re vague.
And what I was saying is what you just said. Why should only one side be catered to? But then that also means that there should be books that teach that LGBTQ is wrong. And I’m pretty sure that if a teacher wanting to give such a book to first graders, even if completely age appropriate, would be very fearful of doing it. They know that they would get the backlash of a lifetime, most certainly lose their jobs, have their social media filled with insults and likely, even threats. I can see people here now saying that “it doesn’t have a place in a school” and how the teacher “shouldn’t shove their beliefs in my children”. So it is both sides trying to have their views and opinions dominating and silencing the other. Conservative teachers have been fired for their views as well.
You want libraries and schools to have access to books that reflect your views and values? Perfectly valid. But then you would have to tolerate the access to books with values you disagree with or even find disgusting. And that goes to both sides. Or maybe the solution is that teachers should remain apolitical and amoral in their teachings. Either way, it should apply yo both.

Well, it doesn’t take a genius to understand that it is a controversial topic, whether or not we like it. And for many parents, teaching about controversial topics is something that they would rather do at home. School is meant to teach children facts, figures and numbers, especially in the early years. It’s not the place to give children of multicultural backgrounds morality lessons.
I do agree that at later ages they should be taught critical analysis, learning to analyze, debate and defend their views and opinions accordingly.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with how they’re handling this. But TBH, it seems both sides are very determined to silence the other.

One book that’s been banned in another district is “And Tango Makes Three”, a children’s book about real same S*x penguins who raised a baby penguin together: https://www.fox13news.com/news/florida- ... on-law.amp

Every site I’ve seen says it’s in the range of a first grade reading level: http://readingtokids.org/Books/BookView ... D=00001189

The illustrations or wording certainly aren’t pornographic. The only reason it’s banned is that it’s about an LGBT family, which is a family structure students in these classes might have. Teachers can have a perfect grasp on what they or the average person would consider “free of pornography and prohibited materials harmful to minors, suited to student needs, and appropriate for the grade level and age group” and still have to remove these books out of fear of legal consequences from very conservative parents who’ll complain about a book with perfectly age appropriate, non-pornographic content because it features something as simple as gay characters.

Controversial doesn’t mean something is pornographic, age inappropriate or harmful to minors though. If the classroom has children of multicultural background, why should the library cater to those who don’t want their children to know LGBT-headed families exist vs. being inclusive of books depicting all families? Only one side is making teachers fearful of legal consequences for having books some parents may disagree with available as optional reading for students here.

[Francee89]

No, but it may mean “not suited for the students’ needs”. That’s why people are saying this is vague. And IMHO, you can’t legislate or set punishments when you’re vague.
And what I was saying is what you just said. Why should only one side be catered to? But then that also means that there should be books that teach that LGBTQ is wrong. And I’m pretty sure that if a teacher wanting to give such a book to first graders, even if completely age appropriate, would be very fearful of doing it. They know that they would get the backlash of a lifetime, most certainly lose their jobs, have their social media filled with insults and likely, even threats. I can see people here now saying that “it doesn’t have a place in a school” and how the teacher “shouldn’t shove their beliefs in my children”. So it is both sides trying to have their views and opinions dominating and silencing the other. Conservative teachers have been fired for their views as well.
You want libraries and schools to have access to books that reflect your views and values? Perfectly valid. But then you would have to tolerate the access to books with values you disagree with or even find disgusting. And that goes to both sides. Or maybe the solution is that teachers should remain apolitical and amoral in their teachings. Either way, it should apply yo both.

Well, it doesn’t take a genius to understand that it is a controversial topic, whether or not we like it. And for many parents, teaching about controversial topics is something that they would rather do at home. School is meant to teach children facts, figures and numbers, especially in the early years. It’s not the place to give children of multicultural backgrounds morality lessons.
I do agree that at later ages they should be taught critical analysis, learning to analyze, debate and defend their views and opinions accordingly.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with how they’re handling this. But TBH, it seems both sides are very determined to silence the other.

Controversial doesn’t mean something is pornographic, age inappropriate or harmful to minors though. If the classroom has children of multicultural background, why should the library cater to those who don’t want their children to know LGBT-headed families exist vs. being inclusive of books depicting all families? Only one side is making teachers fearful of legal consequences for having books some parents may disagree with available as optional reading for students here.

Wouldn’t the apples to apples comparison here be that if the standard is that books with gay families aren’t allowed, all books with any portrayal of heterosexual parents/families aren’t allowed too? That would be completely fair, but that’s not what’s being implemented.

The fact that some children have same S*x parents isn’t a belief, it’s simply a reality. Why should those children be made to feel their families are shameful and weird when their classmates can have endless books featuring families that reflect theirs, with those books not being considered political or moralizing?

[Lemons]

This is a recap of the book Tango Makes Three. A true story of penguins in the Central Park Zoo

The story opens in the Central Park Zoo, a place that houses families of all different kinds. Soon, it is the time of year when all the chinstrap penguins couple up. All of the couples have one female penguin and one male penguin except for Roy and Silo, two male penguins who have fallen in love. They do everything together: they sing, swim, and even build a nest so that they can start a family. The two penguins take turns sitting on a rock, thinking that it is an egg. The zookeeper, Mr. Gramsay, notices this and he brings them an extra egg from another penguin couple who would not be able to care for it. Roy and Silo sit on their egg and take care of it until it hatches. The zookeepers name the female chick Tango. People cheer when they come to visit the zoo and see Tango with her two fathers. The story ends by reiterating that Roy, Silo, and Tango are a happy family and that families can look different.[10


I don’t know how a six year old could take anything sexual out of the story. It’s science. Lions, dolphins and other animals have homosexual interactions. But six year olds won’t see anything sexual about these penguins or other animals. They lay eggs pair up and need to protect it until it’s born.

[Della]

https://www.teamduval.org/2023/01/23/di ... ary-books/

[Quorra2.0]

It's really not that hard. But the drama plays well.

What do you mean by "it". What are you referring to? Did they specify what books need to be removed to make it easier on teachers? Have they actually clearly defined "questionable content"? What happens if a parent complains? The phrase: "Require book selections to be free of pornography and prohibited materials harmful to minors, suited to student needs, and appropriate for the grade level and age group" is far too vague.

Quick question: if teachers don't have a grasp on those things, how have they been preparing lesson plans for their classes all of these years? Aren't lesson plans supposed to be geared toward grade level and age group?

Not quite sure what's vague about appropriate for grade level and age group. Definitely not seeing what's vague about keeping porn out of the classroom. I mean, no porn in school sounds kind of basic to me. Like a bare minimum thing that a teacher should be doing. Maybe it's just me though.

What’s age appropriate to one is not necessarily age appropriate to another and going by grade level recommendations well I’ve seen people think books were inappropriate for the recommended grade levels.

[Aletheia]

It's really not that hard.

Your evidence?

Evidence that it's not that hard for a teacher to know what's appropriate for the grade and age?

No.

Evidence that it is not hard for a teacher to know what a right-wing politician will deem to be pornographic.

For example, will the teacher get prosecuted for a felony if they leave the Diary of Anne Frank on a bookshelf anywhere in the school?

Dare they risk stocking Lawn Boy, by Jonathan Evison?

Or should they just play it safe and remove any book they think the right might consider to be bad for children?

[Aletheia]

Here's a few more on the list:

The Color Purple, by Alice Walker
Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley
Maus, by Art Spiegelman

https://go.boarddocs.com/fl/ircs/Board. ... ations.pdf