Separation of Church and State Vs. Christian led Manifest Destiny

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Deleted User 1990

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MonarchMom wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:40 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:32 pm
MonarchMom wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:27 pm

"Manifest Destiny" was a cultural belief promoted in the mid-1800's to justify the forced annexation of land. It was never an official policy of the government, and had nothing to do with the founding of the country or the Constitution of the USA.
James Madison.
No clue what you are trying to communicate.
Father of the Constitution, major writer of it…
Huge expansionist that believed it to be the will of God…


The term might have been coined in 1845, but the belief and actions based on them were well alive in 1817.
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BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:50 pm
MonarchMom wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:40 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:32 pm

James Madison.
No clue what you are trying to communicate.
Father of the Constitution, major writer of it…
Huge expansionist that believed it to be the will of God…


The term might have been coined in 1845, but the belief and actions based on them were well alive in 1817.
Lot's of different beliefs were held by different participants in the writing of the Constitution. But that does not make those beliefs part of our Constitution or an official policy of the US then or now.
Deleted User 1990

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MonarchMom wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:57 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:50 pm
MonarchMom wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:40 pm

No clue what you are trying to communicate.
Father of the Constitution, major writer of it…
Huge expansionist that believed it to be the will of God…


The term might have been coined in 1845, but the belief and actions based on them were well alive in 1817.
Lot's of different beliefs were held by different participants in the writing of the Constitution. But that does not make those beliefs part of our Constitution or an official policy of the US then or now.
Definitely brings up some questions on how the words and actions could coincide…
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BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:06 pm
MonarchMom wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:57 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:50 pm

Father of the Constitution, major writer of it…
Huge expansionist that believed it to be the will of God…


The term might have been coined in 1845, but the belief and actions based on them were well alive in 1817.
Lot's of different beliefs were held by different participants in the writing of the Constitution. But that does not make those beliefs part of our Constitution or an official policy of the US then or now.
Definitely brings up some questions on how the words and actions could coincide…
They coincide perfectly well. You can hold Christian beliefs but also believe that people should be free to practice any religion they want, or none at all.
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BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:06 pm
MonarchMom wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:57 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:50 pm

Father of the Constitution, major writer of it…
Huge expansionist that believed it to be the will of God…


The term might have been coined in 1845, but the belief and actions based on them were well alive in 1817.
Lot's of different beliefs were held by different participants in the writing of the Constitution. But that does not make those beliefs part of our Constitution or an official policy of the US then or now.
Definitely brings up some questions on how the words and actions could coincide…
Perhaps. But other "founding fathers" owned slaves, so they clearly "believed" in slavery. Should we question how that should "coincide" with our society now? Several states at the time chose to only allow voting rights for white males who owned property or paid taxes. Should that now be up for debate?

I honestly do not see the point you are trying to make in this thread.
Deleted User 1990

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Pjmm wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:29 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:09 pm I think people would prefer it if they weren’t Christian’s… Right? I mean that would make everything work better in our day and age…

But the evidence doesn’t really support that.

The thought is that maybe they were secretly not Christian, but even their adherence to freemasonry had an extreme bias towards Christianity and Kabbalistic teachings.


They were church members, they were baptized, they talk about being Christians in their personal writings…Washington himself was in his day known as a devout Anglican raised by a super religious woman.
Pjmm wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:30 am From what I understand the founding fathers weren’t particularly Christian. While that might be their upbringing I think they believed in the philosophy and rational thinking that was in Europe. I heard, although I don’t know, that Ben Franklin hung with Voltaire. Certainly they were both alive in the same time period. Both Ben and Thomas Jefferson had their affairs. They weren’t living a so called Christian life. It’s possible they were also horrified over the Salem witch hunts. Although far before their time they must have known about them. I think they wanted separation of church and state to ensure their new country wouldn’t prosecute or attempt to toss out free thinkers. Don’t forget the puritans were here in the first place to escape religious persecution in Europe. So yes they wanted freedom of religion. But they wanted to be free from religion themselves. Now maybe I’m totally wrong here but that’s how I see it. I don’t believe Christianity is prosecuted here. I do think the criticisms against it is completely justified and we have a lot to answer for.
I honestly don’t care what our founding fathers were, be it Christian, Jewish or secret Chtullu worshipers. 😀 I also don’t fully know their beliefs. I simply stated I think Franklin might have been influenced by Voltaire and other philosophers of the day. It just seems to me they wanted both religious freedom and separation of church and state. They probably wanted it because many pilgrims came fleeing religious persecution. So if you were Christian, Quaker, Catholic or a Mason you could practice as you wanted. And the government couldn’t persecute you for it. I’m not sure what their being Christian has to do with their wanting separation of church and state. Who cares?
I don’t really care lol…

This is just a spin off thought I had based on the Lauren Boebart post where her beliefs in separation of church and state were being discussed.

From an Uber Christian point of view, what she’s saying makes sense and was probably true..
From any other point of view it’s a horrific thought and not the kind of country they want to live in…

No real point I guess other than to mirror what was happening then to what’s happening today and pointing out the duality behind the country.

Words = It’s for everyone
Actions/Laws = it’s a Christian nation

It’s easy to see why there are two such opposing sides, each believing their truths…
Deleted User 1990

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MonarchMom wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:19 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:06 pm
MonarchMom wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:57 pm

Lot's of different beliefs were held by different participants in the writing of the Constitution. But that does not make those beliefs part of our Constitution or an official policy of the US then or now.
Definitely brings up some questions on how the words and actions could coincide…
Perhaps. But other "founding fathers" owned slaves, so they clearly "believed" in slavery. Should we question how that should "coincide" with our society now? Several states at the time chose to only allow voting rights for white males who owned property or paid taxes. Should that now be up for debate?

I honestly do not see the point you are trying to make in this thread.
There’s not always a point I’m trying to lead you to…

Sometimes I’m just questioning two things that don’t fit together logically…
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BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:21 pm
Pjmm wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:29 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:09 pm I think people would prefer it if they weren’t Christian’s… Right? I mean that would make everything work better in our day and age…

But the evidence doesn’t really support that.

The thought is that maybe they were secretly not Christian, but even their adherence to freemasonry had an extreme bias towards Christianity and Kabbalistic teachings.


They were church members, they were baptized, they talk about being Christians in their personal writings…Washington himself was in his day known as a devout Anglican raised by a super religious woman.
I honestly don’t care what our founding fathers were, be it Christian, Jewish or secret Chtullu worshipers. 😀 I also don’t fully know their beliefs. I simply stated I think Franklin might have been influenced by Voltaire and other philosophers of the day. It just seems to me they wanted both religious freedom and separation of church and state. They probably wanted it because many pilgrims came fleeing religious persecution. So if you were Christian, Quaker, Catholic or a Mason you could practice as you wanted. And the government couldn’t persecute you for it. I’m not sure what their being Christian has to do with their wanting separation of church and state. Who cares?
I don’t really care lol…

This is just a spin off thought I had based on the Lauren Boebart post where her beliefs in separation of church and state were being discussed.

From an Uber Christian point of view, what she’s saying makes sense and was probably true..
From any other point of view it’s a horrific thought and not the kind of country they want to live in…

No real point I guess other than to mirror what was happening then to what’s happening today and pointing out the duality behind the country.

Words = It’s for everyone
Actions/Laws = it’s a Christian nation

It’s easy to see why there are two such opposing sides, each believing their truths…
Sorry to keep quoting you, lol. but...

To me, it seems like the opposite. While the founding fathers talk a lot about their religious beliefs, they specifically wrote the bill of rights, constitution, etc., to include language barring the establishment of any particular religion. Perhaps they just wanted to be sure that their colonies were to free to practice the reigning religion...but why wouldn't we interpret that in a modern way? I don't think Christians even really want this to be a "Christian nation", just right wing extremists. And even if that's what they think they want, they'll get a huge wake up call when their entire way of life is forced to change depending on the interpretation of the Bible of whoever is in power at the time.
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BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:21 pm
Pjmm wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:29 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:09 pm I think people would prefer it if they weren’t Christian’s… Right? I mean that would make everything work better in our day and age…

But the evidence doesn’t really support that.

The thought is that maybe they were secretly not Christian, but even their adherence to freemasonry had an extreme bias towards Christianity and Kabbalistic teachings.


They were church members, they were baptized, they talk about being Christians in their personal writings…Washington himself was in his day known as a devout Anglican raised by a super religious woman.
I honestly don’t care what our founding fathers were, be it Christian, Jewish or secret Chtullu worshipers. 😀 I also don’t fully know their beliefs. I simply stated I think Franklin might have been influenced by Voltaire and other philosophers of the day. It just seems to me they wanted both religious freedom and separation of church and state. They probably wanted it because many pilgrims came fleeing religious persecution. So if you were Christian, Quaker, Catholic or a Mason you could practice as you wanted. And the government couldn’t persecute you for it. I’m not sure what their being Christian has to do with their wanting separation of church and state. Who cares?
I don’t really care lol…

This is just a spin off thought I had based on the Lauren Boebart post where her beliefs in separation of church and state were being discussed.

From an Uber Christian point of view, what she’s saying makes sense and was probably true..
From any other point of view it’s a horrific thought and not the kind of country they want to live in…

No real point I guess other than to mirror what was happening then to what’s happening today and pointing out the duality behind the country.

Words = It’s for everyone
Actions/Laws = it’s a Christian nation

It’s easy to see why there are two such opposing sides, each believing their truths…
Lauren Boebert is an idiot. She can be tired of the separation of church and state all she wants. It’s still part of the constitution whether she likes it or not. Whatever the founding fathers believed this was something they wanted. As far as the end times they’ve been saying that since Jesus ascended in to heaven probably. There’s no real evidence I see that we’re in some spiritual end times. I do think humanity is in trouble given climate change. But that has nothing to do with Revelations. As far as our laws yes they probably are based in religious rules. But I wouldn’t say strictly Christian. I’d say some are based on the Ten Commandments which are Jewish and handed down by Moses. The rest are philosophical, legal, or laws for the betterment of society. After all Christianity forbids homosexuality and allows slavery. Hell you can even stone an adulterer. 😀
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RIZZY1 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:51 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:21 pm
Pjmm wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:29 pm

I honestly don’t care what our founding fathers were, be it Christian, Jewish or secret Chtullu worshipers. 😀 I also don’t fully know their beliefs. I simply stated I think Franklin might have been influenced by Voltaire and other philosophers of the day. It just seems to me they wanted both religious freedom and separation of church and state. They probably wanted it because many pilgrims came fleeing religious persecution. So if you were Christian, Quaker, Catholic or a Mason you could practice as you wanted. And the government couldn’t persecute you for it. I’m not sure what their being Christian has to do with their wanting separation of church and state. Who cares?
I don’t really care lol…

This is just a spin off thought I had based on the Lauren Boebart post where her beliefs in separation of church and state were being discussed.

From an Uber Christian point of view, what she’s saying makes sense and was probably true..
From any other point of view it’s a horrific thought and not the kind of country they want to live in…

No real point I guess other than to mirror what was happening then to what’s happening today and pointing out the duality behind the country.

Words = It’s for everyone
Actions/Laws = it’s a Christian nation

It’s easy to see why there are two such opposing sides, each believing their truths…
Sorry to keep quoting you, lol. but...

To me, it seems like the opposite. While the founding fathers talk a lot about their religious beliefs, they specifically wrote the bill of rights, constitution, etc., to include language barring the establishment of any particular religion. Perhaps they just wanted to be sure that their colonies were to free to practice the reigning religion...but why wouldn't we interpret that in a modern way? I don't think Christians even really want this to be a "Christian nation", just right wing extremists. And even if that's what they think they want, they'll get a huge wake up call when their entire way of life is forced to change depending on the interpretation of the Bible of whoever is in power at the time.
If Jesus was alive today we’d probably all call him a crazy socialist hippie who wants us to give away all our wealth to the poor. And we wouldn’t be wrong considering he literally said that was the way for one rich man to get into the kingdom of God. Then we’d laugh some more when he tells us a man who divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery. That’s why I say we’re really not a Christian nation. We just want to control certain classes of people. Probably the sort Jesus hung out with. We really don’t want to follow his word. We just want everyone else to do it.
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