RIP Queen Elizabeth II

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going back further in history you’ll find worse but this time period the British were one of the worst. , the British weren’t alone in their criminality around the world. But they were the biggest culprits during this time period. Germany and Japan followed shortly after.

They don’t get credit for abolishing slavery earlier than other countries. Not after making obscene amounts of money traveling slaves all over the world.

And nobody has even mentioned the evils done to the Irish in the 1800 through the 1900’s.
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Aletheia wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:45 am
Lemons wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:21 pm There are no countries that have a worst history than England and their destruction and greed still effects poorer countries to this day.

There is no other country ever, in the history of the world that has invaded as many countries as England.
The UK wasn't the top nation for as long as Egypt was. They didn't control as high a percentage of the known world as the Greeks (under Alexander) or the Romans did. They didn't have the massive power imbalances over their neighbours that China and America did in their days.

But the British empire did hit a 'sweet spot' of long duration and world-spanning travel that produced one of the empires with the biggest effect upon people and history, there has ever been. In other words, they were powerful.

A power they used for both good and evil (and, between that, much arrogance and self interest). I think you're correct about the number of invasions. There are been empires that produced more evil per person in the empire (looking at you, Belgium and the Aztec), and empires that produced greater atrocities (yes, Germany, but also Spain and let's not forget the USSR under Stalin). But, just by 'merit' of it having been very powerful, yes, the British did cause immense amounts of harm - and that's just down to the odds, with them being no better nor worse than average.

The British spread their judicial system of 'common law'... but also cause homosexuality of the criminalised in many countries in which it otherwise would not have been.

They spread the industrial revolution (which is a mixed blessing, if ever there was one).

They were at for forefront of abolishing slavery... but also spent a century or so profiting from the triangle trade (which did, indeed, fund many things in Britain that the British still enjoy the benefits of).


An interesting question is: if a different country had been the one with a strong navy and well positioned to benefit from the ideas that sparked the industrial revolution... would they have handled that power better or worse than Britain did?
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So she's now in the "vault," whatever that implies, during a very moving and touching part of her funeral Monday.

The lone bagpipe player gave me chills listening and watching him walk alone.

I still say RIP. It's a new era for that monarchy and the Royals in particular. May God bless and keep them.
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Lemons wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:52 pm going back further in history you’ll find worse but this time period the British were one of the worst. , the British weren’t alone in their criminality around the world. But they were the biggest culprits during this time period. Germany and Japan followed shortly after.

They don’t get credit for abolishing slavery earlier than other countries. Not after making obscene amounts of money traveling slaves all over the world.

And nobody has even mentioned the evils done to the Irish in the 1800 through the 1900’s.
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Aletheia wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:45 am
Lemons wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:21 pm There are no countries that have a worst history than England and their destruction and greed still effects poorer countries to this day.

There is no other country ever, in the history of the world that has invaded as many countries as England.
The UK wasn't the top nation for as long as Egypt was. They didn't control as high a percentage of the known world as the Greeks (under Alexander) or the Romans did. They didn't have the massive power imbalances over their neighbours that China and America did in their days.

But the British empire did hit a 'sweet spot' of long duration and world-spanning travel that produced one of the empires with the biggest effect upon people and history, there has ever been. In other words, they were powerful.

A power they used for both good and evil (and, between that, much arrogance and self interest). I think you're correct about the number of invasions. There are been empires that produced more evil per person in the empire (looking at you, Belgium and the Aztec), and empires that produced greater atrocities (yes, Germany, but also Spain and let's not forget the USSR under Stalin). But, just by 'merit' of it having been very powerful, yes, the British did cause immense amounts of harm - and that's just down to the odds, with them being no better nor worse than average.

The British spread their judicial system of 'common law'... but also cause homosexuality of the criminalised in many countries in which it otherwise would not have been.

They spread the industrial revolution (which is a mixed blessing, if ever there was one).

They were at for forefront of abolishing slavery... but also spent a century or so profiting from the triangle trade (which did, indeed, fund many things in Britain that the British still enjoy the benefits of).


An interesting question is: if a different country had been the one with a strong navy and well positioned to benefit from the ideas that sparked the industrial revolution... would they have handled that power better or worse than Britain did?
I'm Irish, I don't go around crying about what The British did to my ancestors before I was born. What is the point? If everyone where going to cry about wrongs of the past the whole world would be crying and at war.
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AZOldCoot wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:03 pm So she's now in the "vault," whatever that implies, during a very moving and touching part of her funeral Monday.

The lone bagpipe player gave me chills listening and watching him walk alone.

I still say RIP. It's a new era for that monarchy and the Royals in particular. May God bless and keep them.
It gave me the chills also. Very touching moment.
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While it doesn't pertain to the late Queen or the British, the following link is interesting, at least to us as my husband is half Icelandic:
"The Barbary Corsair Raid on Iceland, 1627" https://jddavies.com/2017/02/20/the-bar ... -1627/amp/
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Momto2boys973 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:52 am But I don’t think anyone should apologize for something that happened when they weren’t even born. Apologies on behalf of someone else are meaningless.

When I was in college one of my best friends was German. Not of German descent, born and raised in Germany. She was here in Mexico because her dad was an executive for BMW and he was transferred here. At some point she apologized to me for the Holocaust. Maybe her grandparents and great grandparents were Nazi sympathizers, I don’t know, I don’t care. SHE wasn’t. And she shouldn’t feel the guilt and the need to apologize for the actions of others, especially not when she herself didn’t do anything to encourage those actions. I can understand a parent feeling the need to apologize for a child. They had a part in their education and their moral values. But what possible responsibility could my friend have in what her ancestors did?

No one should feel responsible or guilty for their ancestors and what they did. I was bullied in high school, I would never expect my bully’s kids apologize to my kids for it. They haven’t done anything to feel ashamed, guilty or responsible for. The apology should come from the wrong doer to the wronged, otherwise it’s really meaningless. What they can do is learn from their ancestors’ mistakes and do better. Not follow in those footsteps.
And the Royal family has indeed done that.
SouthernIslander wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:27 am
BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:24 am

Queen Elizabeth herself had no fault in slavery…

People bringing it up are just trying to smear her name as her funeral was going on.


That’s shameful…


If people want to point fingers they can look at their own damn bloodlines too and find some evil.
So from what I am gathering, Queen Elizabeth’s bloodline was heavily involved in the slave trade and no one from the family ever apologized for it. You think the public should get over that and not mention it at all out of respect for her death.

Is that correct? Again, not being sarcastic or calling anyone a racist or anything…...just summarizing the points.

No family is perfect, I agree with you on that. However, I personally never had a problem apologizing on behalf of my elders or ancestors if they were wrong. I really don’t see any other way to resolve generational conflict without accountability.

As a slavery descendant myself, I don’t dance on anyone’s grave but I definitely understand not being a fan, even in her death.
I think that is a part of the problem with this debate, you (general) can’t really tell someone who was victimized how to feel about it and all historical atrocities affects their victims differently.

I get what both sides are saying, just reads like there would be a little more compromise. I strongly disagree with the “I’m glad the bitch is dead” type insults because I give all human life a certain amount of respect. However, from what I have read over the past few weeks, people have a valid reason to be salty towards the Royal Family and I can also respect thier right to feel that way, even if I disagree with the delivery or regardless of what I feel they are owed.

Also, out of curiosity has anyone said anything in this thread that was a lie?

I’m trying to understand why the truth is so offensive if the family is indeed guilty of half this stuff and I am admittedly working with a learning curve.
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Momto2boys973 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:52 am But I don’t think anyone should apologize for something that happened when they weren’t even born. Apologies on behalf of someone else are meaningless.

When I was in college one of my best friends was German. Not of German descent, born and raised in Germany. She was here in Mexico because her dad was an executive for BMW and he was transferred here. At some point she apologized to me for the Holocaust. Maybe her grandparents and great grandparents were Nazi sympathizers, I don’t know, I don’t care. SHE wasn’t. And she shouldn’t feel the guilt and the need to apologize for the actions of others, especially not when she herself didn’t do anything to encourage those actions. I can understand a parent feeling the need to apologize for a child. They had a part in their education and their moral values. But what possible responsibility could my friend have in what her ancestors did?

No one should feel responsible or guilty for their ancestors and what they did. I was bullied in high school, I would never expect my bully’s kids apologize to my kids for it. They haven’t done anything to feel ashamed, guilty or responsible for. The apology should come from the wrong doer to the wronged, otherwise it’s really meaningless. What they can do is learn from their ancestors’ mistakes and do better. Not follow in those footsteps.
And the Royal family has indeed done that.
SouthernIslander wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:27 am
BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:24 am

Queen Elizabeth herself had no fault in slavery…

People bringing it up are just trying to smear her name as her funeral was going on.


That’s shameful…


If people want to point fingers they can look at their own damn bloodlines too and find some evil.
So from what I am gathering, Queen Elizabeth’s bloodline was heavily involved in the slave trade and no one from the family ever apologized for it. You think the public should get over that and not mention it at all out of respect for her death.

Is that correct? Again, not being sarcastic or calling anyone a racist or anything…...just summarizing the points.

No family is perfect, I agree with you on that. However, I personally never had a problem apologizing on behalf of my elders or ancestors if they were wrong. I really don’t see any other way to resolve generational conflict without accountability.

As a slavery descendant myself, I don’t dance on anyone’s grave but I definitely understand not being a fan, even in her death.
Individual persons, probably not, but rulers and country political figures should and routinely do. With QEII dead, it will be up to Charles and it will be interesting if he chooses to formally apologize to the nations that were colonized or chooses to remain silent.

Do you feel it wasn't appropriate for Steinmeier to express deep remorse for the suffering that Germany caused during WWII? He was born 10 years after the war. British atrocities related to colonialism didn't end until 1966, 14 years into QEII's reign. Shouldn't the peoples of those colonized countries have expected an apology?

I'm pretty ambivalent about Elizabeth's death but feel sorry for the loss her family and those who loved her are experiencing. I also understand that for many, especially those who lived in colonized countries, her loss brings feelings of anger.
"The books that the world calls immoral are books that show its own shame." - Oscar Wilde
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DSamuels wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:03 pm
SouthernIslander wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:56 am
DSamuels wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:11 am No, they did not start the slave trade, Portugal did. It’s interesting that Portugal found out that buying the slaves from the Africans was more cost effective than raiding and capturing people to be slaves.



https://ldhi.library.cofc.edu/exhibits/ ... lave_trade

While all this is interesting the point of this post was to talk about the death of the longest reigning monarch, not to denigrate her. If that’s your interest please make your own post. In no way was she perfect, but she was not evil either.

I’m trying to understand the overall point that your side is arguing, so I’m not being sarcastic.

Are you saying Queen Elizabeth’s bloodline has no fault in slavery? Or are y’all upset that people are dancing on her grave and bashing her?
I am talking about her, not her bloodline. I made this post as a tribute to who I thought was a remarkable woman. Now I remember why I rarely post in here.
Okay that makes much more sense and thanks for clarifying. This conversation probably would have been more appropriate under that free speech thread instead of this one if it was intended to be more of a memorial post.
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BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:04 pm
SouthernIslander wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:27 am
BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:24 am

Queen Elizabeth herself had no fault in slavery…

People bringing it up are just trying to smear her name as her funeral was going on.


That’s shameful…


If people want to point fingers they can look at their own damn bloodlines too and find some evil.
So from what I am gathering, Queen Elizabeth’s bloodline was heavily involved in the slave trade and no one from the family ever apologized for it. You think the public should get over that and not mention it at all out of respect for her death.

Is that correct? Again, not being sarcastic or calling anyone a racist or anything…...just summarizing the points.

No family is perfect, I agree with you on that. However, I personally never had a problem apologizing on behalf of my elders or ancestors if they were wrong. I really don’t see any other way to resolve generational conflict without accountability.

As a slavery descendant myself, I don’t dance on anyone’s grave but I definitely understand not being a fan, even in her death.
You think the moment of someone’s death is the right time to go over it all?
Well, they say your funeral is your report card and death has a tendency to ruffle up raw emotions (good and bad). So I don’t have a problem with it as long as it’s not a lie or flat out disrespectful (which goes back to the answer Dsam provided).
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SouthernIslander wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:09 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:04 pm
SouthernIslander wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:27 am

So from what I am gathering, Queen Elizabeth’s bloodline was heavily involved in the slave trade and no one from the family ever apologized for it. You think the public should get over that and not mention it at all out of respect for her death.

Is that correct? Again, not being sarcastic or calling anyone a racist or anything…...just summarizing the points.

No family is perfect, I agree with you on that. However, I personally never had a problem apologizing on behalf of my elders or ancestors if they were wrong. I really don’t see any other way to resolve generational conflict without accountability.

As a slavery descendant myself, I don’t dance on anyone’s grave but I definitely understand not being a fan, even in her death.
You think the moment of someone’s death is the right time to go over it all?
Well, they say your funeral is your report card and death has a tendency to ruffle up raw emotions (good and bad). So I don’t have a problem with it as long as it’s not a lie or flat out disrespectful (which goes back to the answer Dsam provided).
I wonder if riffling up raw emotions is the right time to get their point heard if they want a positive outcome...because I bet at least a dozen people read this post and got pretty turned off to the voices that want an apology . Angrily dismissive of their arguments now…
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