Lying about where dead people go

[Aletheia]

Further links:

https://www.richarddawkins.net/2012/12/ ... n-atheist/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-grieving


I've been on Atheist forums for more than a decade, so this is a topic I've seen again and again. Please believe me when I say that your "oh, he's looking down on us" often isn't harmless. You don't need to understand why. Just accept that it is so.

[Aletheia]

In fact for everyone a simple "I'm sorry, I'm here," is best.

I agree. Giving sincere condolences is the way to go.

Nobody should be expected to lie, in order to comfort someone else.

[Momto2boys973]

Actually, I did have my flirting with Atheism at some point. But I think I was mostly an Agnostic.
Still, I didn’t find the religious idea of someone being in heaven hurtful or insulting. Annoying? Probably. But certainly not something to be offended about if someone told me so.

Now, by your example it seems to me that this woman lost a daughter and people were telling her her daughter was suffering since she doesn’t believe in Jesus. I agree that’s pretty insulting and I’d feel the same way and I would also be resentful if people starting saying things like that to me since I also don’t believe in Jesus. But that’s certainly not the same as saying something like “she’s watching us from heaven”. And I’m sorry, but if you feel offended by someone saying that, IMHO, that’s petty and shows a feeling of superiority. If someone told me that a loved one is now with Jesus, I wouldn’t share that belief, but I would take it as coming from a desire to comfort me according to what they believe. Certainly not something I would find hurtful or offensive.

If a person believes their loved one is gone, pushing up the petunias and not really having any further existence, how can they be hurt by someone saying “oh, he’s looking down on us”? Roll your eyes, laugh out loud if you must or just say a respectful, meaningless “thank you”. No one gets hurt by being told that.

Possibly being an Atheist isn't a position you personally have been in? Here's an article by someone who has actually experienced it:

I became tired and even resentful of the comments about my daughter needing to go be with Jesus. Worse still, I isolated myself so I wouldn’t need to hear their “comforting” words because all they did was make me feel worse.

from https://www.salon.com/2015/10/24/please ... in_heaven/

[Momto2boys973]

Well.. who are you to tell them they’re “lying”? That is a pretty stuck up thing to say. You may not believe in that, but that doesn’t mean they’re lying to you. They’re expressing what they believe is true. You’re making it sound like people who offer that kind of comfort are willfully and deliberately spreading “lies”. That’s pretty insulting, especially if they’re trying to express a sincere and heartfelt comfort.

I remember when my brother passed away, I was sitting shiva (Jewish mourning period) and an acquaintance of mine came to visit us and we were talking about how it came about. She knew my brother had been sick for years, and so I told her how me, my parents and my DH were in the room as my brother died and how the last few days we talked and I shared with him pictures of our childhood. She suddenly got serious and asked me “and did you asked him for forgiveness?” I confess I was floored by the question. I just thought “ oh crap, should I have said sorry for accidentally breaking his Chewbacca action figure when we were kids?” And yeah, for like 10 minutes I felt like crap, in my grief at the moment I thought I had failed to do something I could never do anymore. Lucky for me, DH arrived and when I told him about it he said that many people feel uncomfortable when faced with others grieving and they think they have to say something deep and wise and end up screwing up. So that’s how I took it. She screwed up. She wasn’t trying to make me feel bad, she wasn’t trying to be all holier-than-thou. She simply didn’t know what to say and so said the wrong thing.

And this is why I always tell people that if you’re going to face a person grieving, less is more. Don’t try to come up with these “pearls of wisdom”, just express your condolences and assure your support. That’s all that’s needed. And if you’re sadly on the receiving end of the condolences, don’t be offended if someone says more than they should. Chances are they meant no harm, quite the contrary.

In fact for everyone a simple "I'm sorry, I'm here," is best.

I agree. Giving sincere condolences is the way to go.

Nobody should be expected to lie, in order to comfort someone else.

[Anonymous 10]

I agree that sometimes people, though they mean well, say the wrong thing. But I have a sister who knows that I do NOT believe the same things that she does. She knows it with every ounce of her being. Would you think it would be wrong of her, in my hour of grief, to still bestow blessings of her faith on me?

Well.. who are you to tell them they’re “lying”? That is a pretty stuck up thing to say. You may not believe in that, but that doesn’t mean they’re lying to you. They’re expressing what they believe is true. You’re making it sound like people who offer that kind of comfort are willfully and deliberately spreading “lies”. That’s pretty insulting, especially if they’re trying to express a sincere and heartfelt comfort.

I remember when my brother passed away, I was sitting shiva (Jewish mourning period) and an acquaintance of mine came to visit us and we were talking about how it came about. She knew my brother had been sick for years, and so I told her how me, my parents and my DH were in the room as my brother died and how the last few days we talked and I shared with him pictures of our childhood. She suddenly got serious and asked me “and did you asked him for forgiveness?” I confess I was floored by the question. I just thought “ oh crap, should I have said sorry for accidentally breaking his Chewbacca action figure when we were kids?” And yeah, for like 10 minutes I felt like crap, in my grief at the moment I thought I had failed to do something I could never do anymore. Lucky for me, DH arrived and when I told him about it he said that many people feel uncomfortable when faced with others grieving and they think they have to say something deep and wise and end up screwing up. So that’s how I took it. She screwed up. She wasn’t trying to make me feel bad, she wasn’t trying to be all holier-than-thou. She simply didn’t know what to say and so said the wrong thing.

And this is why I always tell people that if you’re going to face a person grieving, less is more. Don’t try to come up with these “pearls of wisdom”, just express your condolences and assure your support. That’s all that’s needed. And if you’re sadly on the receiving end of the condolences, don’t be offended if someone says more than they should. Chances are they meant no harm, quite the contrary.

In fact for everyone a simple "I'm sorry, I'm here," is best.

I agree. Giving sincere condolences is the way to go.

Nobody should be expected to lie, in order to comfort someone else.

[Pjmm]

In fact for everyone a simple "I'm sorry, I'm here," is best.

I agree. Giving sincere condolences is the way to go.

Nobody should be expected to lie, in order to comfort someone else.

I don't think anyone is "lying". I believe people feel they should be comforting so they try to be. And if you're a believer you might say your loved one is in heaven. Either way it's cold comfort I'm sure so i don't particularly like the statement. Even a believer may not want to hear "he's in heaven" because she'd rather her loved one still be on earth. That's why I usually say I'm sorry. As an aside I am not sure there's a spiritual world but it would be nice if there was. I've got a few words to say to my ex.

[Aletheia]

In fact for everyone a simple "I'm sorry, I'm here," is best.

I agree. Giving sincere condolences is the way to go.

Nobody should be expected to lie, in order to comfort someone else.

Well.. who are you to tell them they’re “lying”? That is a pretty stuck up thing to say.

Sorry for the confusion.

I was referring to the situation where an Atheist is being pressured to say they think Heaven does exist, in order to comfort a grieving believer, by other relatives who are also believers.

[Pjmm]

I agree. Giving sincere condolences is the way to go.

Nobody should be expected to lie, in order to comfort someone else.

Well.. who are you to tell them they’re “lying”? That is a pretty stuck up thing to say.

Sorry for the confusion.

I was referring to the situation where an Atheist is being pressured to say they think Heaven does exist, in order to comfort a grieving believer, by other relatives who are also believers.

In that instance if the grieving one is part of the conversion I might say "if there is a heaven rest assure your loved one is there. Can you tell me about the person? What was she/ he like? " That's not a lie unless the loved one was a low down rotten scumbag. Idk I've never been pressured exactly. I would neither debate or get involved in being pressured to say what I didn't believe. If the grieving one isn't present I would ask the other relatives to please not tell me what to say or do and this isn't open to debate.