5 people are killed, at least 18 injured in a shooting at a gay nightclub in Colorado Springs

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Aletheia wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:08 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:00 pm
Aletheia wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:50 pm

Not only was this type of statistically significant change in the violence statistics predictable... it was predicted. In advance. In print. Multiple times.

{examples snipped}
Then again the question, what do you do with that information?

Do you arrest people who say things that could in future be indicative of violence?
I'd like to distinguish between individuals and major political parties.

It's one thing for John Doe to post to his 15 twitter followed "I believe men who f**k other men are an abomination. Faggots should be burned... alive."

It is another thing when a Republican state-level politician makes an hour long speech to a crowded audience on how Transgender people are the #1 threat of molesting children and that, if they're elected, they'll pass laws banning any individual or organisation receiving state funding from so much as mentioning to under 18 year olds that discrimination against gay people is an issue - thereby almost entirely handicapping schools from addressing any systematic problems leading to violence against openly gay pupils under their protection (look up the statistics on bullying and suicide faced by non-supported queer teenagers).
So do you arrest the politicians? Fine them? Make their stances illegal?
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BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:10 pm
Aletheia wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:08 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:00 pm
Then again the question, what do you do with that information?

Do you arrest people who say things that could in future be indicative of violence?
I'd like to distinguish between individuals and major political parties.

It's one thing for John Doe to post to his 15 twitter followed "I believe men who f**k other men are an abomination. Faggots should be burned... alive."

It is another thing when a Republican state-level politician makes an hour long speech to a crowded audience on how Transgender people are the #1 threat of molesting children and that, if they're elected, they'll pass laws banning any individual or organisation receiving state funding from so much as mentioning to under 18 year olds that discrimination against gay people is an issue - thereby almost entirely handicapping schools from addressing any systematic problems leading to violence against openly gay pupils under their protection (look up the statistics on bullying and suicide faced by non-supported queer teenagers).
So do you arrest the politicians? Fine them? Make their stances illegal?
I'd like their supporters to hold them accountable for the predictable effect of their words.

By, for example, them having the courage and decency to stand up and say "Sir, the person who pulled the trigger in that night club should certainly be held responsible for their own actions. But you too have taken actions, specifically the speech you make last month at the rally, that have also had consequences. Did you intend to contribute towards more innocent young people being brutally murdered, or will you apologise to their surviving loved ones?"
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Aletheia wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:19 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:10 pm
Aletheia wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:08 pm

I'd like to distinguish between individuals and major political parties.

It's one thing for John Doe to post to his 15 twitter followed "I believe men who f**k other men are an abomination. Faggots should be burned... alive."

It is another thing when a Republican state-level politician makes an hour long speech to a crowded audience on how Transgender people are the #1 threat of molesting children and that, if they're elected, they'll pass laws banning any individual or organisation receiving state funding from so much as mentioning to under 18 year olds that discrimination against gay people is an issue - thereby almost entirely handicapping schools from addressing any systematic problems leading to violence against openly gay pupils under their protection (look up the statistics on bullying and suicide faced by non-supported queer teenagers).
So do you arrest the politicians? Fine them? Make their stances illegal?
I'd like their supporters to hold them accountable for the predictable effect of their words.

By, for example, them having the courage and decency to stand up and say "Sir, the person who pulled the trigger in that night club should certainly be held responsible for their own actions. But you too have taken actions, specifically the speech you make last month at the rally, that have also had consequences. Did you intend to contribute towards more innocent young people being brutally murdered, or will you apologise to their surviving loved ones?"
The supporters are the problem… politicians will say whatever they think will get them elected.

That’s what they think will work…


So how do you deal with the people and what they say being the problem?
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BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:38 pm
Aletheia wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:19 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:10 pm So do you arrest the politicians? Fine them? Make their stances illegal?
I'd like their supporters to hold them accountable for the predictable effect of their words.

By, for example, them having the courage and decency to stand up and say "Sir, the person who pulled the trigger in that night club should certainly be held responsible for their own actions. But you too have taken actions, specifically the speech you make last month at the rally, that have also had consequences. Did you intend to contribute towards more innocent young people being brutally murdered, or will you apologise to their surviving loved ones?"
politicians will say whatever they think will get them elected[/b].

That’s what they think will work…
That's pretty much the definition of "popularism".

popularism - Wiktionaryhttps://en.wiktionary.org › wiki › popularism
EnglishEdit. EtymologyEdit · popular +‎ -ism. NounEdit. popularism (uncountable). Any political doctrine chosen to appeal to a majority of the electorate.


You are being over cynical. Not all politicians are popularists, or even liars. Conviction politicans do exist. On both sides of the political spectrum.
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BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:38 pm The supporters are the problem
There's some truth in the adage that, in a democracy, the people get the leaders they deserve.

But only some.

If you look deeper, you see that people's views are subject to being swayed by external forces. 'think tanks', pressure groups, political action committees, etc spend money on adverts and strategic sponsoring of certain existing voices, not because they enjoy throwing money away, but because it's been proven to be effective.

Some politicians support a policy because it is already popular with that target segment of the electorate.

Some support it because they've calculated that THEY CAN CAUSE IT TO BECOME POPULAR.

And some entered politics already knowing which policies they would stand for... but their decision on whether or not to enter politics was influenced by an estimate of whether they'd have a chance of winning.
Deleted User 1990

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Aletheia wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:25 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:38 pm
Aletheia wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:19 pm

I'd like their supporters to hold them accountable for the predictable effect of their words.

By, for example, them having the courage and decency to stand up and say "Sir, the person who pulled the trigger in that night club should certainly be held responsible for their own actions. But you too have taken actions, specifically the speech you make last month at the rally, that have also had consequences. Did you intend to contribute towards more innocent young people being brutally murdered, or will you apologise to their surviving loved ones?"
politicians will say whatever they think will get them elected[/b].

That’s what they think will work…
That's pretty much the definition of "popularism".

popularism - Wiktionaryhttps://en.wiktionary.org › wiki › popularism
EnglishEdit. EtymologyEdit · popular +‎ -ism. NounEdit. popularism (uncountable). Any political doctrine chosen to appeal to a majority of the electorate.


You are being over cynical. Not all politicians are popularists, or even liars. Conviction politicans do exist. On both sides of the political spectrum.
Would you argue that the feelings of the specific party’s constituents are not the most driving factor in both types of politicians?
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BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:33 pm Would you argue that the feelings of the specific party’s constituents are not the most driving factor in both types of politicians?
Let me give an example.

There are some politicians who, before they even entered politics, believed that life begins at conception and that abortion is equivalent to murder (or perhaps 'self defence' in the case of medical complications). They believed that before a majority of their party came to the same conclusions, and they'll continue to assert that as a self-evident trust even if a majority of people in their party change their mind on that subject.

It might influence how loudly they speak up on the subject, but it won't alter whether they vote for or against certain bits of legislation.


Does the politicians care about being re-elected? Yes.
Do they care about representing all residents of their state, no matter who those residents vote for (or even if they didn't vote)? Yes.

You can care about someone's feelings, even take them into account, without saying of their opinions "You are correct." or anything else the politician feels would be a lie.
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"MMA-fighter-turned-porn-actor Aaron Franklin Brink had an immediate reaction when he learned his 22-year-old son had been accused of slaughtering five people and injuring 18 others last weekend in a mass shooting at a Colorado Springs nightspot catering to the LGBTQ community.

A defense attorney called Sunday night and told Brink, who lives in Southern California, that Anderson Lee Aldrich was under arrest for the massacre at Club Q.

“They started telling me about the incident, a shooting involving multiple people,” Brink said Tuesday in an interview outside his San Diego home with CBS 8. “And then I go on to find out it’s a gay bar. I said, ‘God, is he gay?’ I got scared, ‘Shit, is he gay?’ And he’s not gay, so I said, ‘Phhhewww…’”

Brink, who has appeared in such films as My MILF Boss 8, I Wanna Get Titty Fucked, and Latina Slut Academy, told CBS 8, “You know Mormons don’t do gay. We don’t do gay. There’s no gays in the Mormon church. We don’t do gay.” (The Mormon Church has confirmed that Aldrich was a member but had not been active in some time.)

In a court filing late Tuesday, lawyers for Aldrich, who in 2016 changed his name from Nicholas Franklin Brink to escape his father’s sordid past, said Aldrich is non-binary, saying “they use they/them pronouns.”

However, booking records list Aldrich’s gender as male. Additionally, in text messages from the day of the shooting, which were shown to The Daily Beast by a source close to Aldrich, Aldrich’s mother referred to her son as he and him."

https://www.thedailybeast.com/aaron-bri ... a?ref=home
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Aletheia wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:25 pm
BobCobbMagob wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:38 pm
Aletheia wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:19 pm

I'd like their supporters to hold them accountable for the predictable effect of their words.

By, for example, them having the courage and decency to stand up and say "Sir, the person who pulled the trigger in that night club should certainly be held responsible for their own actions. But you too have taken actions, specifically the speech you make last month at the rally, that have also had consequences. Did you intend to contribute towards more innocent young people being brutally murdered, or will you apologise to their surviving loved ones?"
politicians will say whatever they think will get them elected[/b].

That’s what they think will work…
That's pretty much the definition of "popularism".

popularism - Wiktionaryhttps://en.wiktionary.org › wiki › popularism
EnglishEdit. EtymologyEdit · popular +‎ -ism. NounEdit. popularism (uncountable). Any political doctrine chosen to appeal to a majority of the electorate.


You are being over cynical. Not all politicians are popularists, or even liars. Conviction politicans do exist. On both sides of the political spectrum.
Almost every Civil Rights law from anti-lynching to same S*x marriage has been passed without the popular opinion. Our system of governance requires that sometimes our political leaders vote for what's right rather than what is popular.
"The books that the world calls immoral are books that show its own shame." - Oscar Wilde
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WellPreserved wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:01 pm A defense attorney called Sunday night and told Brink, who lives in Southern California, that Anderson Lee Aldrich was under arrest for the massacre at Club Q.

“They started telling me about the incident, a shooting involving multiple people,” Brink said Tuesday in an interview outside his San Diego home with CBS 8. “And then I go on to find out it’s a gay bar. I said, ‘God, is he gay?’ I got scared, ‘Shit, is he gay?’ And he’s not gay, so I said, ‘Phhhewww…’”
A father so screwed up in the head, that he's more concerned about his son being homosexual, than about his son being a mass murderer.

It is a pity Brink is going to get away without taking any responsibility for the second hand consequences of the parenting he inflicted upon Anderson.
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