I think that's a great idea. I don't want to see history visibly erased, even if it's history that's painful. It happened, it is acknowledged (by most), but it's time to move on and focus on the present and future.WellPreserved wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:40 pmI have zoomed in on several town council and county board of supervisor meetings in the last couple of weeks specifically devoted to discussion about our own local confederate statue, and our county wasn't even really part of the confederacy. As much as I'd like to see it gone, I don't want to see it arbitrarily torn down by protestors. I would like our community to come to an agreement to move the statue to our local cemetery where confederate soldiers, union soldiers, and deserters are all buried and I actually think that's going to happen. That is the discussion I would like to see in all municipalities that have these problematic statues.Frau Holle wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:11 pmI don’t think anyone places innocent or guilt on inanimate objects, they place those labels on the human beings that the statues depict.WellPreserved wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:58 pm
I don't place guilt or innocence on inanimate objects but I do apologize if the term offended you.
As a Virginian who comes from a long line of Virginians, I would never refer to myself as part of the confederacy except in an historical context. The confederacy was an unrecognized republic which was in existence for less than 5 years and yes, it was formed to protect the right to own humans.
With migrations of people from rural to urban, urban to rural, east coast to west coast and all the areas in between, and with the influx of immigration the last 100 years, I think states are unilaterally becoming more culturally diverse as well as politically diverse and would argue your "different countries" analogy.
The "fight" you speak of is a political one. Looking at a basic political map which defines states as either all red or all blue, I can understand why you would think this was split between "north" and "south" with midwest thrown into the "south" and west coast thrown into the "north". If you look at a more detailed political map, you would see that it is more of a divide between rural and urban/suburban.
Your experience as a Virginian is relevant, but not at all a testimony of what those who want to preserve these statues would say.
The fight I speak of is exactly a political one, with both sides continually saying the other side’s opinion doesn’t matter, and keeping a refusal to accurately recount their issue with the destruction of what they see as important.
But at the same time I think it's very important for the reason WHY these statues were erected in the first place to be discussed which was the point of this OP. I also think that we have to acknowledge the pain that these statues have caused. In the case of our statue in front of the courthouse in the center of town, it has caused our Black residents a tremendous amount of pain especially in light of the fact that they were not even allowed to enter our courthouse through the front door until the late 60s.
National Trust for Historic Preservation Statement on Confederate Monuments
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Think about it.Thelma Harper wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:01 amHow exactly is taking them down going to erase history? Has the Holocaust been erased?
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We have preserved battlefields and other things of a true historical context. Did taking down memorials to the Nazis erase history?Frau Holle wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:08 amThelma Harper wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:01 amHow exactly is taking them down going to erase history? Has the Holocaust been erased?
No, because we preserved the death camps and routinely teach people what happened there.
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No. Answer in your own opinion.Snicker wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:23 amThink about it.Thelma Harper wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:01 amHow exactly is taking them down going to erase history? Has the Holocaust been erased?
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The Nazis were quite different. America still has half a country that feels emotionally connected to the confederacy, so our after reactions were also quite different.Thelma Harper wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:30 amWe have preserved battlefields and other things of a true historical context. Did taking down memorials to the Nazis erase history?Frau Holle wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:08 amThelma Harper wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:01 am
How exactly is taking them down going to erase history? Has the Holocaust been erased?
No, because we preserved the death camps and routinely teach people what happened there.
When we preserved all of these places, and recreate all of these places it is because that is the only way you truly care about history.
You learn about wars and battles and human rights atrocities all the time in museums but after that instance you move on with your day and do whatever else is on the vacation day.
When you visit a death camp, you see it, you hear screams, you feel it, you smell it, you are immersed in what happened until you are left cold with a pit in your stomach that won’t go away for days.
Have you ever been to a civil war battlefield that has been preserved? It’s a field. Maybe a gift shop.
We go about preserving history in very different ways.
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I agree with you on the long lasting emotional toll that visiting a death camp take - I've been to Dachau and Auschwitz. I am, however, offended by your description of our civil war battlefields as "It's a field. Maybe a gift shop." I can only assume that you have never visited one or if you had, you did not take part in the detailed tour, film, museum, or visit the surrounding landmarks. Is Omaha "just a beach"? While moved in a different way, I left the battlefields with long lasting emotional toll.Frau Holle wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:58 amThe Nazis were quite different. America still has half a country that feels emotionally connected to the confederacy, so our after reactions were also quite different.Thelma Harper wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:30 amWe have preserved battlefields and other things of a true historical context. Did taking down memorials to the Nazis erase history?Frau Holle wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:08 am
No, because we preserved the death camps and routinely teach people what happened there.
When we preserved all of these places, and recreate all of these places it is because that is the only way you truly care about history.
You learn about wars and battles and human rights atrocities all the time in museums but after that instance you move on with your day and do whatever else is on the vacation day.
When you visit a death camp, you see it, you hear screams, you feel it, you smell it, you are immersed in what happened until you are left cold with a pit in your stomach that won’t go away for days.
Have you ever been to a civil war battlefield that has been preserved? It’s a field. Maybe a gift shop.
We go about preserving history in very different ways.
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I’ve visited about 15. I’ve been on the tours and heard excitement and laughter coming from one of our guides as he described the battle and the cannon balls that were used. And half of the time the “museums” were from the confederacy viewpoint.WellPreserved wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:42 pmI agree with you on the long lasting emotional toll that visiting a death camp take - I've been to Dachau and Auschwitz. I am, however, offended by your description of our civil war battlefields as "It's a field. Maybe a gift shop." I can only assume that you have never visited one or if you had, you did not take part in the detailed tour, film, museum, or visit the surrounding landmarks. Is Omaha "just a beach"? While moved in a different way, I left the battlefields with long lasting emotional toll.Frau Holle wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:58 amThe Nazis were quite different. America still has half a country that feels emotionally connected to the confederacy, so our after reactions were also quite different.Thelma Harper wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:30 am
We have preserved battlefields and other things of a true historical context. Did taking down memorials to the Nazis erase history?
When we preserved all of these places, and recreate all of these places it is because that is the only way you truly care about history.
You learn about wars and battles and human rights atrocities all the time in museums but after that instance you move on with your day and do whatever else is on the vacation day.
When you visit a death camp, you see it, you hear screams, you feel it, you smell it, you are immersed in what happened until you are left cold with a pit in your stomach that won’t go away for days.
Have you ever been to a civil war battlefield that has been preserved? It’s a field. Maybe a gift shop.
We go about preserving history in very different ways.
That doesn’t happen in Dachau.
It’s just not the same thing. Half of Germany is not flying a Nazi flag when they go to a sports game. Half of America still flies a confederate flag when they go places.
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15 is impressive but I'm sorry that was your take-away. I just can't imagine.Frau Holle wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:10 pmI’ve visited about 15. I’ve been on the tours and heard excitement and laughter coming from one of our guides as he described the battle and the cannon balls that were used. And half of the time the “museums” were from the confederacy viewpoint.WellPreserved wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:42 pmI agree with you on the long lasting emotional toll that visiting a death camp take - I've been to Dachau and Auschwitz. I am, however, offended by your description of our civil war battlefields as "It's a field. Maybe a gift shop." I can only assume that you have never visited one or if you had, you did not take part in the detailed tour, film, museum, or visit the surrounding landmarks. Is Omaha "just a beach"? While moved in a different way, I left the battlefields with long lasting emotional toll.Frau Holle wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:58 am
The Nazis were quite different. America still has half a country that feels emotionally connected to the confederacy, so our after reactions were also quite different.
When we preserved all of these places, and recreate all of these places it is because that is the only way you truly care about history.
You learn about wars and battles and human rights atrocities all the time in museums but after that instance you move on with your day and do whatever else is on the vacation day.
When you visit a death camp, you see it, you hear screams, you feel it, you smell it, you are immersed in what happened until you are left cold with a pit in your stomach that won’t go away for days.
Have you ever been to a civil war battlefield that has been preserved? It’s a field. Maybe a gift shop.
We go about preserving history in very different ways.
That doesn’t happen in Dachau.
It’s just not the same thing. Half of Germany is not flying a Nazi flag when they go to a sports game. Half of America still flies a confederate flag when they go places.
Half? Seriously?
"The books that the world calls immoral are books that show its own shame." - Oscar Wilde
Removing statues is not erasing history. And these statues were not erected after the Civil War. They were erected WAY after the civil war, in the 1900s and 1940s to further emphasize white supremacy.