Do gifted students need special education services and/or special schools to meet their specific educational needs?

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LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:25 pm
Hot4Tchr-Bieg wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:27 pm
LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:18 pm Although I greatly appreciate the time & attention of his IEP, my child with high abilities, he does not "need" special educational services, in the same manner than his younger brother who has a learning disability needs special education services. The former is helpful & entertaining. The latter is a matter independence vs. being dependent life-long.

So if the funding if available, I am support IEPs for gifted students, however, I am actually against special schools for gifted individuals, as following social norms & high EQ is actually a better predictor of success in society, over IQ. They learn this when they are mainstreamed with people who think differently than they do.
That's very interesting...there is a population of high IQ students who cannot be successful in the general ed setting and actually do "need" an alternative setting. You're the first person I've spoken with who has come right out and said that their high ability child does not need gifted classes
I would likely have a different view if I did not have a child who truly NEEDS an IEP for survival in the world of school. My definition of "need" is likely different that people than have only typical & then gifted children.

I would argue any child that has a 130+ IQ, that cannot succeed in a gen ed setting, is not gifted, but rather twice exceptional, obviously having other difficulties impeding their learning & social skills, be it behavior or temperament challenges. So perhaps it is a need in their case.

Gifted children have so many programs, such as DUKE TIPS and typically many local camps & activities that cater to them & their gifts and challenge them. My child could and has actually written his own learning goals & how to implement in a traditional gen ed classroom if need be, as well.
You can choose to financially prioritize one of your children over another, but that doesn’t mean that that’s the best result for society. In Europe, children are put on tracks in schools based on their abilities. That’s a much more pragmatic approach than spending 3 times the amount of money on a child that’s never going to become Einstein than a truly brilliant person that has the ability to achieve great things.
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Anonymous 1 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:30 pm
LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:18 pm Although I greatly appreciate the time & attention of his IEP, my child with high abilities, he does not "need" special educational services, in the same manner than his younger brother who has a learning disability needs special education services. The former is helpful & entertaining. The latter is a matter of independence vs. being dependent life-long.

So if the funding if available, I am support IEPs for gifted students, however, I am actually against special schools for gifted individuals, as following social norms & high EQ is actually a better predictor of success in society, over IQ. They learn this when they are mainstreamed with people who think differently than they do.
Growing up as a child that was literally pushed through the school system and basically forced to graduate at 15 because the only option to educate me was to skip grades, I vehemently disagree. Your exceptional child doesn’t learn how to immerse himself in society when his peers are all older than him. He learns how to bow to peer pressure for acceptance.
I am sorry you had that experience. I certainly don't wish anyone negativity in their childhood.

We will never agree, as likely we are defining "needs" differently.

As parent, it has taken HOURS & HOURS of videos, lecture, discussion, practice with my ODS, so he has the leadership skills & social skills to navigate in his chronological age group, as well as peer groups older than him, when he does work & play with them. I also declined advancing my child up in grades, I keep him with his peers. In this day and age, he can easily work on deeper concepts in science, literature & such while sitting side by side with age appropriate peers. If you look at the research, as I said, hanging out with other gifted kids is not what makes you successful, it's being able to work with a team of typical people or better yet LEAD a team of people, which is where we focus a lot of time & attention. The school IEP does little to help with that really.
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LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:25 pm
Hot4Tchr-Bieg wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:27 pm
LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:18 pm Although I greatly appreciate the time & attention of his IEP, my child with high abilities, he does not "need" special educational services, in the same manner than his younger brother who has a learning disability needs special education services. The former is helpful & entertaining. The latter is a matter independence vs. being dependent life-long.

So if the funding if available, I am support IEPs for gifted students, however, I am actually against special schools for gifted individuals, as following social norms & high EQ is actually a better predictor of success in society, over IQ. They learn this when they are mainstreamed with people who think differently than they do.
That's very interesting...there is a population of high IQ students who cannot be successful in the general ed setting and actually do "need" an alternative setting. You're the first person I've spoken with who has come right out and said that their high ability child does not need gifted classes
I would likely have a different view if I did not have a child who truly NEEDS an IEP for survival in the world of school. My definition of "need" is likely different that people than have only typical & then gifted children.

I would argue any child that has a 130+ IQ, that cannot succeed in a gen ed setting, is not gifted, but rather twice exceptional, obviously having other difficulties impeding their learning & social skills, be it behavior or temperament challenges. So perhaps it is a need in their case.

Gifted children have so many programs, such as DUKE TIPS and typically many local camps & activities that cater to them & their gifts and challenge them. My child could and has actually written his own learning goals & how to implement in a traditional gen ed classroom if need be, as well.
Yeah...see I agree that a large number of high IQ students who cannot succeed in Gen Ed may be twice exceptional, particularly with ADHD or Autism, but not all of them. It is a known difference that gifted students may need an alternative presentation of material, particularly in the elementary levels. You can't introduce a new topic in the science textbook for 30 minutes and then expect these kids to close the book and transition to paying attention to a math lesson. Once you ignite a curiosity...they may need a week to work through that! And it makes them mad or causes anxiety when you interrupt the process. It also makes them mad or causes anxiety when they have these curiosities but cannot communicate or organize them. They can be easily turned off of education at early ages when we expect from them what they cannot deliver.

It's a whole weird thing. I suppose they could invent a new name for what I'm describing, thus creating a new exceptionality. But the fact is that we had a name for it...it was "gifted." Alas, somewhere along the way, the name was hijacked by parents of children who simply benefit from acceleration or enrichment.
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Anonymous 1 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:41 pm
LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:25 pm
Hot4Tchr-Bieg wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:27 pm

That's very interesting...there is a population of high IQ students who cannot be successful in the general ed setting and actually do "need" an alternative setting. You're the first person I've spoken with who has come right out and said that their high ability child does not need gifted classes
I would likely have a different view if I did not have a child who truly NEEDS an IEP for survival in the world of school. My definition of "need" is likely different that people than have only typical & then gifted children.

I would argue any child that has a 130+ IQ, that cannot succeed in a gen ed setting, is not gifted, but rather twice exceptional, obviously having other difficulties impeding their learning & social skills, be it behavior or temperament challenges. So perhaps it is a need in their case.

Gifted children have so many programs, such as DUKE TIPS and typically many local camps & activities that cater to them & their gifts and challenge them. My child could and has actually written his own learning goals & how to implement in a traditional gen ed classroom if need be, as well.
You can choose to financially prioritize one of your children over another, but that doesn’t mean that that’s the best result for society. In Europe, children are put on tracks in schools based on their abilities. That’s a much more pragmatic approach than spending 3 times the amount of money on a child that’s never going to become Einstein than a truly brilliant person that has the ability to achieve great things.
Yet, research does not support your theory at all. Gifted programs do not make great scientists, Nobel prize winners or grand political leaders. I did A LOT of research before I allowed my DS to get tested. They don't seem to harm students, they may help a bit with scholarships, but students from gifted programs are not anymore successful.
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Hot4Tchr-Bieg wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:55 pm
LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:25 pm
Hot4Tchr-Bieg wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:27 pm

That's very interesting...there is a population of high IQ students who cannot be successful in the general ed setting and actually do "need" an alternative setting. You're the first person I've spoken with who has come right out and said that their high ability child does not need gifted classes
I would likely have a different view if I did not have a child who truly NEEDS an IEP for survival in the world of school. My definition of "need" is likely different that people than have only typical & then gifted children.

I would argue any child that has a 130+ IQ, that cannot succeed in a gen ed setting, is not gifted, but rather twice exceptional, obviously having other difficulties impeding their learning & social skills, be it behavior or temperament challenges. So perhaps it is a need in their case.

Gifted children have so many programs, such as DUKE TIPS and typically many local camps & activities that cater to them & their gifts and challenge them. My child could and has actually written his own learning goals & how to implement in a traditional gen ed classroom if need be, as well.
Yeah...see I agree that a large number of high IQ students who cannot succeed in Gen Ed may be twice exceptional, particularly with ADHD or Autism, but not all of them. It is a known difference that gifted students may need an alternative presentation of material, particularly in the elementary levels. You can't introduce a new topic in the science textbook for 30 minutes and then expect these kids to close the book and transition to paying attention to a math lesson. Once you ignite a curiosity...they may need a week to work through that! And it makes them mad or causes anxiety when you interrupt the process. It also makes them mad or causes anxiety when they have these curiosities but cannot communicate or organize them. They can be easily turned off of education at early ages when we expect from them what they cannot deliver.

It's a whole weird thing. I suppose they could invent a new name for what I'm describing, thus creating a new exceptionality. But the fact is that we had a name for it...it was "gifted." Alas, somewhere along the way, the name was hijacked by parents of children who simply benefit from acceleration or enrichment.
But how is that different than any other student? Typical students have passions too?

To play devil's advocate, why would my DS, who has been blessed with even more talents to be able to work on things in after school camps or at home, deserve special treatment at that moment compared to kids that need more assistance?
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LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:30 pm
Hot4Tchr-Bieg wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:11 pm
mater-three wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:58 pm I’m not even getting into this discussion-at least not tonight. I’m just here to watch.
Haha...sometimes it's hard to lay off when certain topics come up!

The professor tonight floated the idea "What do you think would happen with gifted and talented programs if parents had to apply through the "special ed" department?

I like her!
I don't understand the controversy around this question. Our gifted program is housed in the SPED department? What did she mean by apply? Shouldn't it be based on the traditional testing?
It is not common here on Long Island for GandT to be in any way connected to SPED. And testing for GandT is not universal...parents must submit paperwork.

Hand to God...if they announced in my district that GandT would be administrated by the Special Ed office, my village would IGNITE! Loud Karens would line every street in all manners of revolting revolts.
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WellPreserved wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:32 pm The special ed coordinator at my son's school feels that all students should get some sort of IEP and I don't disagree. The best path to success for all learners should be individualized.
Problem is all the administration and teachers would be doing nothing but IEP meetings and lose their minds. I'm amazed the teacher remembers what my son needs never mind twenty other students. And God forbid if there's a sub. My friend did have an IEP for her gifted son. What it entailed idk.
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Hot4Tchr-Bieg wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 10:06 pm
LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:30 pm
Hot4Tchr-Bieg wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:11 pm

Haha...sometimes it's hard to lay off when certain topics come up!

The professor tonight floated the idea "What do you think would happen with gifted and talented programs if parents had to apply through the "special ed" department?

I like her!
I don't understand the controversy around this question. Our gifted program is housed in the SPED department? What did she mean by apply? Shouldn't it be based on the traditional testing?
It is not common here on Long Island for GandT to be in any way connected to SPED. And testing for GandT is not universal...parents must submit paperwork.

Hand to God...if they announced in my district that GandT would be administrated by the Special Ed office, my village would IGNITE! Loud Karens would line every street in all manners of revolting revolts.
OOOOHhhhhhh, that makes sense now.

LOL, over here in the Wizard of Oz land of Kansas, it's all the same man behind the curtain in the SPED dept, LOL. So I didn't get it.
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LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:58 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:41 pm
LiveWhatULove wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:25 pm

I would likely have a different view if I did not have a child who truly NEEDS an IEP for survival in the world of school. My definition of "need" is likely different that people than have only typical & then gifted children.

I would argue any child that has a 130+ IQ, that cannot succeed in a gen ed setting, is not gifted, but rather twice exceptional, obviously having other difficulties impeding their learning & social skills, be it behavior or temperament challenges. So perhaps it is a need in their case.

Gifted children have so many programs, such as DUKE TIPS and typically many local camps & activities that cater to them & their gifts and challenge them. My child could and has actually written his own learning goals & how to implement in a traditional gen ed classroom if need be, as well.
You can choose to financially prioritize one of your children over another, but that doesn’t mean that that’s the best result for society. In Europe, children are put on tracks in schools based on their abilities. That’s a much more pragmatic approach than spending 3 times the amount of money on a child that’s never going to become Einstein than a truly brilliant person that has the ability to achieve great things.
Yet, research does not support your theory at all. Gifted programs do not make great scientists, Nobel prize winners or grand political leaders. I did A LOT of research before I allowed my DS to get tested. They don't seem to harm students, they may help a bit with scholarships, but students from gifted programs are not anymore successful.
You clearly misunderstood my point. Prioritizing high performing students should be the goal of first world countries. Especially every first world country that stalled their economy in the interest of public health. If we are always looking to advance social interests as a whole, we do that by supporting our best and best and brightest, and making sure everyone else has very basic sills, no?
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Hot4Tchr-Bieg wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:11 pm
mater-three wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:58 pm I’m not even getting into this discussion-at least not tonight. I’m just here to watch.
Haha...sometimes it's hard to lay off when certain topics come up!

The professor tonight floated the idea "What do you think would happen with gifted and talented programs if parents had to apply through the "special ed" department?

I like her!
But it is special education. Just for the gifted. In all honesty the parents who think there's a bad connotation can kiss off. Your getting your student what they need to be the best they can. Ain't no shame in that.
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