Planet Fitness revokes a woman's membership after she takes photos in the women's locker room of a transgender shaving

[Slimshandy]

Thank you for trying to take this discussion back to the original story. I've read through the comments and there are a lot of wild leaps to imagined situations that have nothing to do with the original story. And IMO bringing in violent crimes or sexual crimes to this discussion does nothing to prove any kind of point. Sexual crimes have been happening since the beginning of time. Sexual crimes continued to happen when we did have locker rooms and bathrooms that were "vulva only" spaces. And sexual crimes will continue to happen regardless of what we do with those spaces. Sexual crimes won't stop until we address the core cause of sexual crimes. And that's not what this particular thread is about.

That’s what the discussion rests on…


Women are showing themselves to be uncomfortable around a stranger’s naked male body regardless of how the person identifies. Which is what happens in locker rooms, which is why the female locker room space matters to the discussion.

Why is that?

The same reason women are uncomfortable being around strange men naked…

Why is that?

…



Maybe you have a better answer as to why they’re feeling uncomfortable?

Again, I am not agreeing with these generalizations. Some women feel really uncomfortable changing around other women. Some will not change in front of their own children. Do you think they are doing risk analysis and that's why? I don't think it's all up to "this person has a penis therefore - I fear them." And I don't think "women" in general have a problem with any of this. Some do, some don't, and at least some of the controversy is just exploitation to gin up anti-trans sentiment.

People should do what makes them comfortable, but I don't think there is any data to suggest that trans women should not be allowed to use the locker room they identify with while we change the world of locker room design to fit the new reality.

Of course not all women feel this way…

The women who are loudly vocal about being against sharing a private space meant for changing do though… and it’s not at all anti-trans. It’s them being vocal about what they’re uncomfortable with.
The narrative can’t just always be “ they don’t matter enough to discuss”

If 46% of women are uncomfortable, they’re not outliers..
https://today.yougov.com/society/articl ... der-survey

[Traci_Momof2]

Wow - that is a big leap from a person shaving in a locker room and someone taking their photo. In the original incident in the thread no one was naked, no one was committing violent crime, and while I am not sure what CSAM is, I'm pretty sure no one was downloading that.

You are talking about violent crimes. These can happen literally anywhere. Police officers commit them in police cars, medical personal commit them in hospitals, school teachers in schools, clergy in churches, sports coaches, etc. A locker room can also be the setting, but judging from what we know if is more likely that straight identifying males commit these crimes against weaker males. So maybe we need to focus more on violence and the acceptance of sexual aggression and less on how this single person in a locker room identifies.

Thank you for trying to take this discussion back to the original story. I've read through the comments and there are a lot of wild leaps to imagined situations that have nothing to do with the original story. And IMO bringing in violent crimes or sexual crimes to this discussion does nothing to prove any kind of point. Sexual crimes have been happening since the beginning of time. Sexual crimes continued to happen when we did have locker rooms and bathrooms that were "vulva only" spaces. And sexual crimes will continue to happen regardless of what we do with those spaces. Sexual crimes won't stop until we address the core cause of sexual crimes. And that's not what this particular thread is about.

That’s what the discussion rests on…


Women are showing themselves to be uncomfortable around a stranger’s naked male body regardless of how the person identifies. Which is what happens in locker rooms, which is why the female locker room space matters to the discussion. The person in this particular story was not naked, but the locker room aspect itself is such a media catalyst because that’s where naked people are. That’s why the anger is stemmed… no one would care if it was just a sink out in the open that we are all sharing.

So Why is that? Why are they uncomfortable?

The same reason women are uncomfortable being around strange men naked…

Why is that?

…



Maybe you have a better answer as to why they’re feeling uncomfortable?

Find me an article then. Find me an article where a transgender female paraded around the female locker room with their penis hanging out and a cisgender female had an issue with it. Then we can discuss that article. But until there is some sort of actual proof that this is happening in locker rooms all over the nation, I think it's more a figment of your imagination more than anything else.

I've been in the female locker room at my Planet Fitness many times. The amount of nudity from anyone... honestly I don't think I saw any. Individuals stripping down to their underwear for a moment, yes, but I honestly don't recall seeing any nudity from anyone so I assume that all happened behind closed shower curtains or behind closed changing room doors or behind closed stall doors. The amount of cisgendered women getting nude in front of other cisgendered women is very small, and I would suggest the amount of transgendered women doing the same is even smaller. You are focusing on a situation that is highly unlikely to happen to begin with.

[Slimshandy]

I understand your conclusion of why women hesitate to be undressed in front of men in general. However I don't draw the same conclusion that transgender women fall into this same category.

Transgender women are still in the same bracket as men when it comes to the statistical likelihood of committing crime.

They’re also 4 times as likely to be a victim of violent crime- almost all of which are perpetrated by men.

So I very much agree, trans women need to be protected from cis-men. However that doesn’t mean females no longer deserve female spaces.

Females deserve safe spaces. When I'm out in public I expect to be reasonably safe from harm, as should anyone.

Planet Fitness has a duty to their members to offer a reasonable expectation of safety. This is why they have rules about behavior and especially rules about behavior in the locker room. If someone is breaking those rules and it is reported to PF personnel then it should be expected to be addressed.

In this particular situation, a transgender female was in the female locker room not breaking any rules of behavior. A cisgender female was also in the locker room and did break a rule of behavior. Two females in a female locker room and the one who broke the rules got their membership revoked. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

As for females deserving female spaces - if you want a female-only space you are entirely within your right to create one within your own home or on your own property. But is it really anyone else's obligation to offer you a female space? Does PF have any real obligation to offer you a female space, or do they just have an obligation to offer you a safe space? Is there even any real obligation to offer you a space to change your clothes at all? I mean, if you are so uncomfortable with the way they do it, you can just change at home, or use a different facility all together, or have exercise equipment in your own home so you don't have to leave to workout.

Planet Fitness chooses inclusivity. If you or anyone else has a problem with that you are entirely free to choose to go somewhere else. If any public space doesn't offer you what you feel is your deserved female space you are entirely free to choose to go elsewhere.

Of course you’re right… gyms don’t *have* to offer anything at all…

But people will choose where they frequent, and they will just go elsewhere if their needs aren’t met by the business.

[WellPreserved]

Transgender women are still in the same bracket as men when it comes to the statistical likelihood of committing crime.

They’re also 4 times as likely to be a victim of violent crime- almost all of which are perpetrated by men.

So I very much agree, trans women need to be protected from cis-men. However that doesn’t mean females no longer deserve female spaces.

Females deserve safe spaces. When I'm out in public I expect to be reasonably safe from harm, as should anyone.

Planet Fitness has a duty to their members to offer a reasonable expectation of safety. This is why they have rules about behavior and especially rules about behavior in the locker room. If someone is breaking those rules and it is reported to PF personnel then it should be expected to be addressed.

In this particular situation, a transgender female was in the female locker room not breaking any rules of behavior. A cisgender female was also in the locker room and did break a rule of behavior. Two females in a female locker room and the one who broke the rules got their membership revoked. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

As for females deserving female spaces - if you want a female-only space you are entirely within your right to create one within your own home or on your own property. But is it really anyone else's obligation to offer you a female space? Does PF have any real obligation to offer you a female space, or do they just have an obligation to offer you a safe space? Is there even any real obligation to offer you a space to change your clothes at all? I mean, if you are so uncomfortable with the way they do it, you can just change at home, or use a different facility all together, or have exercise equipment in your own home so you don't have to leave to workout.

Planet Fitness chooses inclusivity. If you or anyone else has a problem with that you are entirely free to choose to go somewhere else. If any public space doesn't offer you what you feel is your deserved female space you are entirely free to choose to go elsewhere.

Of course you’re right… gyms don’t *have* to offer anything at all…

But people will choose where they frequent, and they will just go elsewhere if their needs aren’t met by the business.

Which is why many businesses, including Planet Fitness, offer individual changing facilities. Why is that not sufficient?

[Slimshandy]

Thank you for trying to take this discussion back to the original story. I've read through the comments and there are a lot of wild leaps to imagined situations that have nothing to do with the original story. And IMO bringing in violent crimes or sexual crimes to this discussion does nothing to prove any kind of point. Sexual crimes have been happening since the beginning of time. Sexual crimes continued to happen when we did have locker rooms and bathrooms that were "vulva only" spaces. And sexual crimes will continue to happen regardless of what we do with those spaces. Sexual crimes won't stop until we address the core cause of sexual crimes. And that's not what this particular thread is about.

That’s what the discussion rests on…


Women are showing themselves to be uncomfortable around a stranger’s naked male body regardless of how the person identifies. Which is what happens in locker rooms, which is why the female locker room space matters to the discussion. The person in this particular story was not naked, but the locker room aspect itself is such a media catalyst because that’s where naked people are. That’s why the anger is stemmed… no one would care if it was just a sink out in the open that we are all sharing.

So Why is that? Why are they uncomfortable?

The same reason women are uncomfortable being around strange men naked…

Why is that?

…



Maybe you have a better answer as to why they’re feeling uncomfortable?

Find me an article then. Find me an article where a transgender female paraded around the female locker room with their penis hanging out and a cisgender female had an issue with it. Then we can discuss that article. But until there is some sort of actual proof that this is happening in locker rooms all over the nation, I think it's more a figment of your imagination more than anything else.

I've been in the female locker room at my Planet Fitness many times. The amount of nudity from anyone... honestly I don't think I saw any. Individuals stripping down to their underwear for a moment, yes, but I honestly don't recall seeing any nudity from anyone so I assume that all happened behind closed shower curtains or behind closed changing room doors or behind closed stall doors. The amount of cisgendered women getting nude in front of other cisgendered women is very small, and I would suggest the amount of transgendered women doing the same is even smaller. You are focusing on a situation that is highly unlikely to happen to begin with.

"We did not give our consent, they did not ask for our consent, but in that locker room, we turn around and there's a 6'4" biological man dropping his pants and watching us undress, and we're exposed to male genitalia," Gaines said.

Gaines called the experience "worse" than facing Thomas in competition, which she has repeatedly asserted was "unfair" to biological female athletes.

"Not even probably a year, two years ago, this would have been considered some form of sexual assault, voyeurism," she said. "But now not even are they just allowing it to happen, it’s almost as if these large organizations are encouraging it to happen."


https://katv.com/amp/news/nation-world/ ... immer-says

[WellPreserved]

That’s what the discussion rests on…


Women are showing themselves to be uncomfortable around a stranger’s naked male body regardless of how the person identifies. Which is what happens in locker rooms, which is why the female locker room space matters to the discussion.

Why is that?

The same reason women are uncomfortable being around strange men naked…

Why is that?

…



Maybe you have a better answer as to why they’re feeling uncomfortable?

Again, I am not agreeing with these generalizations. Some women feel really uncomfortable changing around other women. Some will not change in front of their own children. Do you think they are doing risk analysis and that's why? I don't think it's all up to "this person has a penis therefore - I fear them." And I don't think "women" in general have a problem with any of this. Some do, some don't, and at least some of the controversy is just exploitation to gin up anti-trans sentiment.

People should do what makes them comfortable, but I don't think there is any data to suggest that trans women should not be allowed to use the locker room they identify with while we change the world of locker room design to fit the new reality.

Of course not all women feel this way…

The women who are loudly vocal about being against sharing a private space meant for changing do though… and it’s not at all anti-trans. It’s them being vocal about what they’re uncomfortable with.
The narrative can’t just always be “ they don’t matter enough to discuss”

If 46% of women are uncomfortable, they’re not outliers..
https://today.yougov.com/society/articl ... der-survey

Those are interesting statistics. Thanks for posting.

40% of women agree that a transgender woman is a woman

Glad to see I'm not an outlier!

[Slimshandy]

Again, I am not agreeing with these generalizations. Some women feel really uncomfortable changing around other women. Some will not change in front of their own children. Do you think they are doing risk analysis and that's why? I don't think it's all up to "this person has a penis therefore - I fear them." And I don't think "women" in general have a problem with any of this. Some do, some don't, and at least some of the controversy is just exploitation to gin up anti-trans sentiment.

People should do what makes them comfortable, but I don't think there is any data to suggest that trans women should not be allowed to use the locker room they identify with while we change the world of locker room design to fit the new reality.

Of course not all women feel this way…

The women who are loudly vocal about being against sharing a private space meant for changing do though… and it’s not at all anti-trans. It’s them being vocal about what they’re uncomfortable with.
The narrative can’t just always be “ they don’t matter enough to discuss”

If 46% of women are uncomfortable, they’re not outliers..
https://today.yougov.com/society/articl ... der-survey

Those are interesting statistics. Thanks for posting.

40% of women agree that a transgender woman is a woman

Glad to see I'm not an outlier!

You’re not at all an outlier…
That doesn’t mean you should be able to dismiss the feelings of others as invalid.

[WellPreserved]

Of course not all women feel this way…

The women who are loudly vocal about being against sharing a private space meant for changing do though… and it’s not at all anti-trans. It’s them being vocal about what they’re uncomfortable with.
The narrative can’t just always be “ they don’t matter enough to discuss”

If 46% of women are uncomfortable, they’re not outliers..
https://today.yougov.com/society/articl ... der-survey

Those are interesting statistics. Thanks for posting.

40% of women agree that a transgender woman is a woman

Glad to see I'm not an outlier!

You’re not at all an outlier…
That doesn’t mean you should be able to dismiss the feelings of others as invalid.

I don't think I dismissed the feelings of others as invalid.

I just think the reason you are hot and riled about some of the responses is your view:

"I keep thinking that people with penises are men, and people with vaginas are women…

Transgender women are called women because that’s the respectful thing to do, call people what they want to be called…."

Which is not a universal view and in fact 40% of women don't share it. So what are we supposed to do when 40% of women feel that transgender women ARE women and 40% of women feel that they should be allowed to use women's changing facilities? I think businesses and Sally have the answer - by creating accessible individual changing rooms? Why isn't that sufficient? Why do transgender women need to be eradicated from changing rooms even if another option is available for those women who may feel discomfort.

[Traci_Momof2]

Transgender women are still in the same bracket as men when it comes to the statistical likelihood of committing crime.

They’re also 4 times as likely to be a victim of violent crime- almost all of which are perpetrated by men.

So I very much agree, trans women need to be protected from cis-men. However that doesn’t mean females no longer deserve female spaces.

Females deserve safe spaces. When I'm out in public I expect to be reasonably safe from harm, as should anyone.

Planet Fitness has a duty to their members to offer a reasonable expectation of safety. This is why they have rules about behavior and especially rules about behavior in the locker room. If someone is breaking those rules and it is reported to PF personnel then it should be expected to be addressed.

In this particular situation, a transgender female was in the female locker room not breaking any rules of behavior. A cisgender female was also in the locker room and did break a rule of behavior. Two females in a female locker room and the one who broke the rules got their membership revoked. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

As for females deserving female spaces - if you want a female-only space you are entirely within your right to create one within your own home or on your own property. But is it really anyone else's obligation to offer you a female space? Does PF have any real obligation to offer you a female space, or do they just have an obligation to offer you a safe space? Is there even any real obligation to offer you a space to change your clothes at all? I mean, if you are so uncomfortable with the way they do it, you can just change at home, or use a different facility all together, or have exercise equipment in your own home so you don't have to leave to workout.

Planet Fitness chooses inclusivity. If you or anyone else has a problem with that you are entirely free to choose to go somewhere else. If any public space doesn't offer you what you feel is your deserved female space you are entirely free to choose to go elsewhere.

Of course you’re right… gyms don’t *have* to offer anything at all…

But people will choose where they frequent, and they will just go elsewhere if their needs aren’t met by the business.

A choice that Sylva could've made for herself - to stay with Planet Fitness or go elsewhere - if she hadn't been snapping pictures in the locker room. Now PF made the choice for her.

[Traci_Momof2]

That’s what the discussion rests on…


Women are showing themselves to be uncomfortable around a stranger’s naked male body regardless of how the person identifies. Which is what happens in locker rooms, which is why the female locker room space matters to the discussion. The person in this particular story was not naked, but the locker room aspect itself is such a media catalyst because that’s where naked people are. That’s why the anger is stemmed… no one would care if it was just a sink out in the open that we are all sharing.

So Why is that? Why are they uncomfortable?

The same reason women are uncomfortable being around strange men naked…

Why is that?

…



Maybe you have a better answer as to why they’re feeling uncomfortable?

Find me an article then. Find me an article where a transgender female paraded around the female locker room with their penis hanging out and a cisgender female had an issue with it. Then we can discuss that article. But until there is some sort of actual proof that this is happening in locker rooms all over the nation, I think it's more a figment of your imagination more than anything else.

I've been in the female locker room at my Planet Fitness many times. The amount of nudity from anyone... honestly I don't think I saw any. Individuals stripping down to their underwear for a moment, yes, but I honestly don't recall seeing any nudity from anyone so I assume that all happened behind closed shower curtains or behind closed changing room doors or behind closed stall doors. The amount of cisgendered women getting nude in front of other cisgendered women is very small, and I would suggest the amount of transgendered women doing the same is even smaller. You are focusing on a situation that is highly unlikely to happen to begin with.

"We did not give our consent, they did not ask for our consent, but in that locker room, we turn around and there's a 6'4" biological man dropping his pants and watching us undress, and we're exposed to male genitalia," Gaines said.

Gaines called the experience "worse" than facing Thomas in competition, which she has repeatedly asserted was "unfair" to biological female athletes.

"Not even probably a year, two years ago, this would have been considered some form of sexual assault, voyeurism," she said. "But now not even are they just allowing it to happen, it’s almost as if these large organizations are encouraging it to happen."


https://katv.com/amp/news/nation-world/ ... immer-says

I will have to read the whole thing and get back to you. I've largely stayed out of the whole Lia Thomas thing.