Spin off of "Teenagers" - Better Ways to Provide for Everyone

[Deleted User 1990]

This is a sad commentary on public school education.

Lowest performing schools means that kids in that district aren't trying enough.
Highest performing schools means that kids are better motivated.

Isn't that terribly simplistic (and horrendously bigoted) to assume that a certain economic demographic of children are trying less than another?

Again, kids will typically live up to their expectations.

A kid who is expected and pushed to do well will succeed regardless of financial status as a child. Plenty of rich adults grew up poor .

Kids who aren’t really expected to do anything with their lives usually don’t, unless they get some sort of epiphany later on in life, which is rare.


It’s pretty dependent on the parenting also.

That's certainly a convenient argument for those who don't want to pay higher property taxes or see their taxes go towards improvements to public education but does it really follow through in statistics?

I mean, those schools which see better outcomes have higher revenue.
Those schools which don't, just don't.

Is the problem that the schools with lesser outcomes have low incentive learners or just less resources?

If you believe that those schools have low incentive learners and understanding that those schools tend to be particular demographics, is it your understanding that those in certain demographics just don't care about learning for their children? That their children are not as motivated to learn and are therefore not entitled for as high as a quality of education? Think about that for just a minute and move that demographic out of the urban area you grew up in into the rural area you currently live. Do you still feel the same?

It’s not really anything to do with taxes, it’s just true.

But let me give you a little background on my life, I’m married to a first generation American whose father was once an orphaned 9 year old on the streets of Tijuana taking care of his four year old brother… he snuck over the border illegally with his brother in tow, and after being picked up by police was able to give an uncle’s name and get reunited with him in Santa Maria California. ( a very long way from TJ)

He was an illegal alien but was able to be signed up for school, he worked his ass off until high school ended, at which point he now had two children of his own and would have all four of his children by the time he was 23.

Working as a janitor , living in the worst part of South Central, as a Mexican- so that got him ten times the racial abuse- worked his way through community college and then got a job as an IT Tech where he now, 35 years later lives in a million dollar home and makes a substantial amount of money living in West Hills, a huge step up.




There is no race, religion or creed that will define your future… your own will alone will get you there, that’s it.


You either try REALLY hard, or you don’t.


My FIL expected a lot of himself, he didn’t even have the parents to expect it… still did amazing. But most people need parents to push them…

[SallyMae]

There is no race, religion or creed that will define your future… your own will alone will get you there, that’s it.

You either try REALLY hard, or you don’t.

My FIL expected a lot of himself, he didn’t even have the parents to expect it… still did amazing. But most people need parents to push them…

There are plenty of people who tried just as hard as your FIL but did not make it out of poverty. But even supposing that everyone who tries REALLY hard can leave poverty, why make it this hard? We could easily make it so that even people who's best is average can make it out of poverty, and only people who are the purest failures stay there. That's what the working classes are supposed to be - a healthy place for just folks to live average, but good, lives. What are we gaining from making it hard that is worth so many growing up in deprivation?

[Deleted User 1990]

There is no race, religion or creed that will define your future… your own will alone will get you there, that’s it.

You either try REALLY hard, or you don’t.

My FIL expected a lot of himself, he didn’t even have the parents to expect it… still did amazing. But most people need parents to push them…

There are plenty of people who tried just as hard as your FIL but did not make it out of poverty. But even supposing that everyone who tries REALLY hard can leave poverty, why make it this hard? We could easily make it so that even people who's best is average can make it out of poverty, and only people who are the purest failures stay there. That's what the working classes are supposed to be - a healthy place for just folks to live average, but good, lives. What are we gaining from making it hard that is worth so many growing up in deprivation?

If you want an average life at an average job, move to the midwest... You can be a mechanic and live awesome. Electrical line workers- great money. Roofers, - great money...plumbers great money...


This literally is the land of opportunity.

[SallyMae]

There is no race, religion or creed that will define your future… your own will alone will get you there, that’s it.

You either try REALLY hard, or you don’t.

My FIL expected a lot of himself, he didn’t even have the parents to expect it… still did amazing. But most people need parents to push them…

There are plenty of people who tried just as hard as your FIL but did not make it out of poverty. But even supposing that everyone who tries REALLY hard can leave poverty, why make it this hard? We could easily make it so that even people who's best is average can make it out of poverty, and only people who are the purest failures stay there. That's what the working classes are supposed to be - a healthy place for just folks to live average, but good, lives. What are we gaining from making it hard that is worth so many growing up in deprivation?

If you want an average life at an average job, move to the midwest... You can be a mechanic and live awesome. Electrical line workers- great money. Roofers, - great money...plumbers great money...


This literally is the land of opportunity.

That was not my question. What are we gaining as a society that makes it worthwhile to keep millions in deprivation?

[Deleted User 1990]

There are plenty of people who tried just as hard as your FIL but did not make it out of poverty. But even supposing that everyone who tries REALLY hard can leave poverty, why make it this hard? We could easily make it so that even people who's best is average can make it out of poverty, and only people who are the purest failures stay there. That's what the working classes are supposed to be - a healthy place for just folks to live average, but good, lives. What are we gaining from making it hard that is worth so many growing up in deprivation?

If you want an average life at an average job, move to the midwest... You can be a mechanic and live awesome. Electrical line workers- great money. Roofers, - great money...plumbers great money...


This literally is the land of opportunity.

That was not my question. What are we gaining as a society that makes it worthwhile to keep millions in deprivation?

We aren’t keeping them in deprivation.

[mommy_jules]

There is no race, religion or creed that will define your future… your own will alone will get you there, that’s it.

You either try REALLY hard, or you don’t.

My FIL expected a lot of himself, he didn’t even have the parents to expect it… still did amazing. But most people need parents to push them…

There are plenty of people who tried just as hard as your FIL but did not make it out of poverty. But even supposing that everyone who tries REALLY hard can leave poverty, why make it this hard? We could easily make it so that even people who's best is average can make it out of poverty, and only people who are the purest failures stay there. That's what the working classes are supposed to be - a healthy place for just folks to live average, but good, lives. What are we gaining from making it hard that is worth so many growing up in deprivation?

If you want an average life at an average job, move to the midwest... You can be a mechanic and live awesome. Electrical line workers- great money. Roofers, - great money...plumbers great money...


This literally is the land of opportunity.

The land of opportunity. What makes it the land of opportunity?

[Deleted User 1990]

There are plenty of people who tried just as hard as your FIL but did not make it out of poverty. But even supposing that everyone who tries REALLY hard can leave poverty, why make it this hard? We could easily make it so that even people who's best is average can make it out of poverty, and only people who are the purest failures stay there. That's what the working classes are supposed to be - a healthy place for just folks to live average, but good, lives. What are we gaining from making it hard that is worth so many growing up in deprivation?

If you want an average life at an average job, move to the midwest... You can be a mechanic and live awesome. Electrical line workers- great money. Roofers, - great money...plumbers great money...


This literally is the land of opportunity.

The land of opportunity. What makes it the land of opportunity?

The ability to be upwardly mobile with effort.

[LiveWhatULove]

Again, kids will typically live up to their expectations.

A kid who is expected and pushed to do well will succeed regardless of financial status as a child. Plenty of rich adults grew up poor .

Kids who aren’t really expected to do anything with their lives usually don’t, unless they get some sort of epiphany later on in life, which is rare.


It’s pretty dependent on the parenting also.

That's certainly a convenient argument for those who don't want to pay higher property taxes or see their taxes go towards improvements to public education but does it really follow through in statistics?

I mean, those schools which see better outcomes have higher revenue.
Those schools which don't, just don't.

Is the problem that the schools with lesser outcomes have low incentive learners or just less resources?

If you believe that those schools have low incentive learners and understanding that those schools tend to be particular demographics, is it your understanding that those in certain demographics just don't care about learning for their children? That their children are not as motivated to learn and are therefore not entitled for as high as a quality of education? Think about that for just a minute and move that demographic out of the urban area you grew up in into the rural area you currently live. Do you still feel the same?

It’s not really anything to do with taxes, it’s just true.

But let me give you a little background on my life, I’m married to a first generation American whose father was once an orphaned 9 year old on the streets of Tijuana taking care of his four year old brother… he snuck over the border illegally with his brother in tow, and after being picked up by police was able to give an uncle’s name and get reunited with him in Santa Maria California. ( a very long way from TJ)

He was an illegal alien but was able to be signed up for school, he worked his ass off until high school ended, at which point he now had two children of his own and would have all four of his children by the time he was 23.

Working as a janitor , living in the worst part of South Central, as a Mexican- so that got him ten times the racial abuse- worked his way through community college and then got a job as an IT Tech where he now, 35 years later lives in a million dollar home and makes a substantial amount of money living in West Hills, a huge step up.




There is no race, religion or creed that will define your future… your own will alone will get you there, that’s it.


You either try REALLY hard, or you don’t.


My FIL expected a lot of himself, he didn’t even have the parents to expect it… still did amazing. But most people need parents to push them…

I have a similar story of an immigrant FIL, only from Sicily.

But it skews us from realizing, that there is a lot of luck involved too.

It’d be a bit like the Jeff Bezos telling us that all you have to do is take great risk and work hard with your business out of your garage to eventually become a billionaire. And he’d be right as that is what happened to him, yet we all know that’s not all it takes, as we know there are 100,000’s of business start-ups that take the same risk, work just as hard, and still go bankrupt. There’s timing, location that play a role. Luck is an action that meets opportunity, and sometimes the opportunity is just not there and it’s out of our hands. It was there for our FILs, and they worked hard to take advantage of it. For example, my FIL also lives in a million dollar home — but that was because he got it far before the astronomical housing prices hit.

Socialist programs always go bankrupt & and power always corrupts people, which leaves no one honest to distribute services in a fair manner — so I do not know the answer.

But I have to agree with Sally, it feels wrong to put some people through grueling hours of 60+ hours manual labor & sacrifice just to scrape by, when others are born into wealth or get a similar salary with little sacrifice due to privilege.

[Deleted User 1990]

That's certainly a convenient argument for those who don't want to pay higher property taxes or see their taxes go towards improvements to public education but does it really follow through in statistics?

I mean, those schools which see better outcomes have higher revenue.
Those schools which don't, just don't.

Is the problem that the schools with lesser outcomes have low incentive learners or just less resources?

If you believe that those schools have low incentive learners and understanding that those schools tend to be particular demographics, is it your understanding that those in certain demographics just don't care about learning for their children? That their children are not as motivated to learn and are therefore not entitled for as high as a quality of education? Think about that for just a minute and move that demographic out of the urban area you grew up in into the rural area you currently live. Do you still feel the same?

It’s not really anything to do with taxes, it’s just true.

But let me give you a little background on my life, I’m married to a first generation American whose father was once an orphaned 9 year old on the streets of Tijuana taking care of his four year old brother… he snuck over the border illegally with his brother in tow, and after being picked up by police was able to give an uncle’s name and get reunited with him in Santa Maria California. ( a very long way from TJ)

He was an illegal alien but was able to be signed up for school, he worked his ass off until high school ended, at which point he now had two children of his own and would have all four of his children by the time he was 23.

Working as a janitor , living in the worst part of South Central, as a Mexican- so that got him ten times the racial abuse- worked his way through community college and then got a job as an IT Tech where he now, 35 years later lives in a million dollar home and makes a substantial amount of money living in West Hills, a huge step up.




There is no race, religion or creed that will define your future… your own will alone will get you there, that’s it.


You either try REALLY hard, or you don’t.


My FIL expected a lot of himself, he didn’t even have the parents to expect it… still did amazing. But most people need parents to push them…

I have a similar story of an immigrant FIL, only from Sicily.

But it skews us from realizing, that there is a lot of luck involved too.

It’d be a bit like the Jeff Bezos telling us that all you have to do is take great risk and work hard with your business out of your garage to eventually become a billionaire. And he’d be right as that is what happened to him, yet we all know that’s not all it takes, as we know there are 100,000’s of business start-ups that take the same risk, work just as hard, and still go bankrupt. There’s timing, location that play a role. Luck is an action that meets opportunity, and sometimes the opportunity is just not there and it’s out of our hands. It was there for our FILs, and they worked hard to take advantage of it. For example, my FIL also lives in a million dollar home — but that was because he got it far before the astronomical housing prices hit.

Socialist programs always go bankrupt & and power always corrupts people, which leaves no one honest to distribute services in a fair manner — so I do not know the answer.

But I have to agree with Sally, it feels wrong to put some people through grueling hours of 60+ hours manual labor & sacrifice just to scrape by, when others are born into wealth or get a similar salary with little sacrifice due to privilege.

It’s not luck, it’s hard as hell work… some people do it, some people don’t.

But we also live in a capitalist country… we’re not living in any kind of moral communism.

The ones who are born with wealth and privilege will exist, and the ones who don’t have a lot of money will exist.


As for social programs we ensure medical care, education, food and shelter. That’s all we can do as a nation, there needs to be individualism in the country as well… the government provides the needs, but the workers paying the taxes can’t provide wealth to everyone.

[Traci_Momof2]

Why do you believe that classes in the worst neighborhoods are easier to pass?

Curriculum is usually decided at the state level with no consideration for socio economic differences. The pass/failure acceptance rate/goal is also decided by the state with no consideration for differences.

In my state, for example, the math curriculum from K-12 is decided at the state level and the district decides how each lesson is taught- they literally write the lesson plans the same for each and every school. Teachers are supposed to differentiate per class/ level but all of that comes from the district and it is the same for each and every school.

Furthermore, teachers at impoverished schools report much higher stress levels, have a much higher percentage of students with learning and behavioral disabilities, and are given fewer resources. It's actually much harder to be a "good" teacher at a "bad" school. If the "bad" schools don't have the amazing teachers that "good" schools have, it would be much harder to pass as a student.

Where did you read about this?

I think it depends on the state too. My kids are in school in Arizona. I have teacher friends who work in Arizona and Nevada (and yes let's note that we are talking about two states that are very often in the bottom rankings for education). What I know from my friends is that teachers are largely left to their own devices to come up with the curriculum. There may be some loose, high-level guidance but that's about it. Also, teachers in my low-income area are encouraged to basically bend over backwards to get students to pass with things such as accepting late work (with no points deducted for lateness) and constantly offering alternatives to earn points to pass. I've also personally seen and heard stories where students really should have been failed and repeated a grade but the schools move them on to the next one anyway.

It all happens around here and I bet that students in high income areas in Phoenix or Flagstaff are working harder to pass the same classes than the students in this area.

That's possible.

In Arizona, standards are also adopted at the state level with no differentiation between class levels (except GT) or socioeconomic differences. Curriculum is adopted at the local level but all curriculum must meet the standards, meaning what is taught and at what level. I would seriously doubt, though, that a school district would hold their higher performing schools to a different level than their lower performing schools. If they did, how would they justify that? We're okay with under-funding the "bad" schools with "dumb" kids because this is the best we can do?

Where I'm at, you don't have higher and lower performing in the same district. They are all performing at the same level, and it's all relatively low.