Planet Fitness revokes a woman's membership after she takes photos in the women's locker room of a transgender shaving

[Slimshandy]

There are people whose genetics are xxy instead of xx or xy, rare, but they definitely exist…but that’s not really what we’re talking about.

We’re discussing if men can decide that they are now women and go into women’s spaces, where they are naked without question… whether or not that should be their right to do so.

I am saying “no” just deciding you’re a female doesn’t literally change your S*x. Many people are disagreeing with me and saying, yes… it does literally change your S*x so all scientific studies that go over the statistical differences in male and female actions are invalid.

There are a lot of differences between men and women, both physically and statistical actions.
Men commit more violent crimes.
Men commit more rapes.
Men commit more sexual abuse crimes.
Men will statistically be more likely to download CSAM.

Plenty of women feel unsafe undressing in front of a naked strange man. They should feel that way. That instinct keeps them safe more often than we would like to admit.



This is the question of whether or not a man can say he’s now a woman, so none of those statistics matter anymore, so all the reasons why women wanted private spaces from men to undress are now an assault on my rights.

Wow - that is a big leap from a person shaving in a locker room and someone taking their photo. In the original incident in the thread no one was naked, no one was committing violent crime, and while I am not sure what CSAM is, I'm pretty sure no one was downloading that.

You are talking about violent crimes. These can happen literally anywhere. Police officers commit them in police cars, medical personal commit them in hospitals, school teachers in schools, clergy in churches, sports coaches, etc. A locker room can also be the setting, but judging from what we know if is more likely that straight identifying males commit these crimes against weaker males. So maybe we need to focus more on violence and the acceptance of sexual aggression and less on how this single person in a locker room identifies.

Absolutely! We also need to stop treating male aggression and violence as a biologically inherent trait.

Males having a MUCH HIGHER rate of aggression and violence is a biologically inherent trait.

We have literally thousands of scientific studies going over the why.

[Slimshandy]

Never said your definition was "false." I said it is an oversimplification to define this based on a single organ. There is more nuance in humans, and apparently in many other mammals. And not everyone falls completely into one category or the other.

There are people whose genetics are xxy instead of xx or xy, rare, but they definitely exist…but that’s not really what we’re talking about.

We’re discussing if men can decide that they are now women and go into women’s spaces, where they are naked without question… whether or not that should be their right to do so.

I am saying “no” just deciding you’re a female doesn’t literally change your S*x. Many people are disagreeing with me and saying, yes… it does literally change your S*x so all scientific studies that go over the statistical differences in male and female actions are invalid.

There are a lot of differences between men and women, both physically and statistical actions.
Men commit more violent crimes.
Men commit more rapes.
Men commit more sexual abuse crimes.
Men will statistically be more likely to download CSAM.

Plenty of women feel unsafe undressing in front of a naked strange man. They should feel that way. That instinct keeps them safe more often than we would like to admit.



This is the question of whether or not a man can say he’s now a woman, so none of those statistics matter anymore, so all the reasons why women wanted private spaces from men to undress are now an assault on my rights.

Wow - that is a big leap from a person shaving in a locker room and someone taking their photo. In the original incident in the thread no one was naked, no one was committing violent crime, and while I am not sure what CSAM is, I'm pretty sure no one was downloading that.

You are talking about violent crimes. These can happen literally anywhere. Police officers commit them in police cars, medical personal commit them in hospitals, school teachers in schools, clergy in churches, sports coaches, etc. A locker room can also be the setting, but judging from what we know if is more likely that straight identifying males commit these crimes against weaker males. So maybe we need to focus more on violence and the acceptance of sexual aggression and less on how this single person in a locker room identifies.

CSAM is child sexual abuse material, formerly known as child porn.




These are violent crimes, but these are reasons why women are hesitant to share private spaces with men where undressing occurs.

[MonarchMom]

CSAM is child sexual abuse material, formerly known as child porn.

These are violent crimes, but these are reasons why women are hesitant to share private spaces with men where undressing occurs.

I understand your conclusion of why women hesitate to be undressed in front of men in general. However I don't draw the same conclusion that transgender women fall into this same category.

[WellPreserved]

Wow - that is a big leap from a person shaving in a locker room and someone taking their photo. In the original incident in the thread no one was naked, no one was committing violent crime, and while I am not sure what CSAM is, I'm pretty sure no one was downloading that.

You are talking about violent crimes. These can happen literally anywhere. Police officers commit them in police cars, medical personal commit them in hospitals, school teachers in schools, clergy in churches, sports coaches, etc. A locker room can also be the setting, but judging from what we know if is more likely that straight identifying males commit these crimes against weaker males. So maybe we need to focus more on violence and the acceptance of sexual aggression and less on how this single person in a locker room identifies.

Absolutely! We also need to stop treating male aggression and violence as a biologically inherent trait.

Males having a MUCH HIGHER rate of aggression and violence is a biologically inherent trait.

We have literally thousands of scientific studies going over the why.

I should have qualified that as aggression and violence against women.

[Slimshandy]

CSAM is child sexual abuse material, formerly known as child porn.

These are violent crimes, but these are reasons why women are hesitant to share private spaces with men where undressing occurs.

I understand your conclusion of why women hesitate to be undressed in front of men in general. However I don't draw the same conclusion that transgender women fall into this same category.

Transgender women are still in the same bracket as men when it comes to the statistical likelihood of committing crime.

They’re also 4 times as likely to be a victim of violent crime- almost all of which are perpetrated by men.

So I very much agree, trans women need to be protected from cis-men. However that doesn’t mean females no longer deserve female spaces.

[Slimshandy]

Absolutely! We also need to stop treating male aggression and violence as a biologically inherent trait.

Males having a MUCH HIGHER rate of aggression and violence is a biologically inherent trait.

We have literally thousands of scientific studies going over the why.

I should have qualified that as aggression and violence against women.

Well… it’s aggression and violence in general. But if you’re wondering who the #1 murderer of women is - the current or former husband/Boyfriend.

[Traci_Momof2]

Never said your definition was "false." I said it is an oversimplification to define this based on a single organ. There is more nuance in humans, and apparently in many other mammals. And not everyone falls completely into one category or the other.

There are people whose genetics are xxy instead of xx or xy, rare, but they definitely exist…but that’s not really what we’re talking about.

We’re discussing if men can decide that they are now women and go into women’s spaces, where they are naked without question… whether or not that should be their right to do so.

I am saying “no” just deciding you’re a female doesn’t literally change your S*x. Many people are disagreeing with me and saying, yes… it does literally change your S*x so all scientific studies that go over the statistical differences in male and female actions are invalid.

There are a lot of differences between men and women, both physically and statistical actions.
Men commit more violent crimes.
Men commit more rapes.
Men commit more sexual abuse crimes.
Men will statistically be more likely to download CSAM.

Plenty of women feel unsafe undressing in front of a naked strange man. They should feel that way. That instinct keeps them safe more often than we would like to admit.



This is the question of whether or not a man can say he’s now a woman, so none of those statistics matter anymore, so all the reasons why women wanted private spaces from men to undress are now an assault on my rights.

Wow - that is a big leap from a person shaving in a locker room and someone taking their photo. In the original incident in the thread no one was naked, no one was committing violent crime, and while I am not sure what CSAM is, I'm pretty sure no one was downloading that.

You are talking about violent crimes. These can happen literally anywhere. Police officers commit them in police cars, medical personal commit them in hospitals, school teachers in schools, clergy in churches, sports coaches, etc. A locker room can also be the setting, but judging from what we know if is more likely that straight identifying males commit these crimes against weaker males. So maybe we need to focus more on violence and the acceptance of sexual aggression and less on how this single person in a locker room identifies.

Thank you for trying to take this discussion back to the original story. I've read through the comments and there are a lot of wild leaps to imagined situations that have nothing to do with the original story. And IMO bringing in violent crimes or sexual crimes to this discussion does nothing to prove any kind of point. Sexual crimes have been happening since the beginning of time. Sexual crimes continued to happen when we did have locker rooms and bathrooms that were "vulva only" spaces. And sexual crimes will continue to happen regardless of what we do with those spaces. Sexual crimes won't stop until we address the core cause of sexual crimes. And that's not what this particular thread is about.

[Slimshandy]

There are people whose genetics are xxy instead of xx or xy, rare, but they definitely exist…but that’s not really what we’re talking about.

We’re discussing if men can decide that they are now women and go into women’s spaces, where they are naked without question… whether or not that should be their right to do so.

I am saying “no” just deciding you’re a female doesn’t literally change your S*x. Many people are disagreeing with me and saying, yes… it does literally change your S*x so all scientific studies that go over the statistical differences in male and female actions are invalid.

There are a lot of differences between men and women, both physically and statistical actions.
Men commit more violent crimes.
Men commit more rapes.
Men commit more sexual abuse crimes.
Men will statistically be more likely to download CSAM.

Plenty of women feel unsafe undressing in front of a naked strange man. They should feel that way. That instinct keeps them safe more often than we would like to admit.



This is the question of whether or not a man can say he’s now a woman, so none of those statistics matter anymore, so all the reasons why women wanted private spaces from men to undress are now an assault on my rights.

Wow - that is a big leap from a person shaving in a locker room and someone taking their photo. In the original incident in the thread no one was naked, no one was committing violent crime, and while I am not sure what CSAM is, I'm pretty sure no one was downloading that.

You are talking about violent crimes. These can happen literally anywhere. Police officers commit them in police cars, medical personal commit them in hospitals, school teachers in schools, clergy in churches, sports coaches, etc. A locker room can also be the setting, but judging from what we know if is more likely that straight identifying males commit these crimes against weaker males. So maybe we need to focus more on violence and the acceptance of sexual aggression and less on how this single person in a locker room identifies.

Thank you for trying to take this discussion back to the original story. I've read through the comments and there are a lot of wild leaps to imagined situations that have nothing to do with the original story. And IMO bringing in violent crimes or sexual crimes to this discussion does nothing to prove any kind of point. Sexual crimes have been happening since the beginning of time. Sexual crimes continued to happen when we did have locker rooms and bathrooms that were "vulva only" spaces. And sexual crimes will continue to happen regardless of what we do with those spaces. Sexual crimes won't stop until we address the core cause of sexual crimes. And that's not what this particular thread is about.

That’s what the discussion rests on…


Women are showing themselves to be uncomfortable around a stranger’s naked male body regardless of how the person identifies. Which is what happens in locker rooms, which is why the female locker room space matters to the discussion. The person in this particular story was not naked, but the locker room aspect itself is such a media catalyst because that’s where naked people are. That’s why the anger is stemmed… no one would care if it was just a sink out in the open that we are all sharing.

So Why is that? Why are they uncomfortable?

The same reason women are uncomfortable being around strange men naked…

Why is that?

…



Maybe you have a better answer as to why they’re feeling uncomfortable?

[SallyMae]

Wow - that is a big leap from a person shaving in a locker room and someone taking their photo. In the original incident in the thread no one was naked, no one was committing violent crime, and while I am not sure what CSAM is, I'm pretty sure no one was downloading that.

You are talking about violent crimes. These can happen literally anywhere. Police officers commit them in police cars, medical personal commit them in hospitals, school teachers in schools, clergy in churches, sports coaches, etc. A locker room can also be the setting, but judging from what we know if is more likely that straight identifying males commit these crimes against weaker males. So maybe we need to focus more on violence and the acceptance of sexual aggression and less on how this single person in a locker room identifies.

Thank you for trying to take this discussion back to the original story. I've read through the comments and there are a lot of wild leaps to imagined situations that have nothing to do with the original story. And IMO bringing in violent crimes or sexual crimes to this discussion does nothing to prove any kind of point. Sexual crimes have been happening since the beginning of time. Sexual crimes continued to happen when we did have locker rooms and bathrooms that were "vulva only" spaces. And sexual crimes will continue to happen regardless of what we do with those spaces. Sexual crimes won't stop until we address the core cause of sexual crimes. And that's not what this particular thread is about.

That’s what the discussion rests on…


Women are showing themselves to be uncomfortable around a stranger’s naked male body regardless of how the person identifies. Which is what happens in locker rooms, which is why the female locker room space matters to the discussion.

Why is that?

The same reason women are uncomfortable being around strange men naked…

Why is that?

…



Maybe you have a better answer as to why they’re feeling uncomfortable?

Again, I am not agreeing with these generalizations. Some women feel really uncomfortable changing around other women. Some will not change in front of their own children. Do you think they are doing risk analysis and that's why? I don't think it's all up to "this person has a penis therefore - I fear them." And I don't think "women" in general have a problem with any of this. Some do, some don't, and at least some of the controversy is just exploitation to gin up anti-trans sentiment.

People should do what makes them comfortable, but I don't think there is any data to suggest that trans women should not be allowed to use the locker room they identify with while we change the world of locker room design to fit the new reality.

[Traci_Momof2]

CSAM is child sexual abuse material, formerly known as child porn.

These are violent crimes, but these are reasons why women are hesitant to share private spaces with men where undressing occurs.

I understand your conclusion of why women hesitate to be undressed in front of men in general. However I don't draw the same conclusion that transgender women fall into this same category.

Transgender women are still in the same bracket as men when it comes to the statistical likelihood of committing crime.

They’re also 4 times as likely to be a victim of violent crime- almost all of which are perpetrated by men.

So I very much agree, trans women need to be protected from cis-men. However that doesn’t mean females no longer deserve female spaces.

Females deserve safe spaces. When I'm out in public I expect to be reasonably safe from harm, as should anyone.

Planet Fitness has a duty to their members to offer a reasonable expectation of safety. This is why they have rules about behavior and especially rules about behavior in the locker room. If someone is breaking those rules and it is reported to PF personnel then it should be expected to be addressed.

In this particular situation, a transgender female was in the female locker room not breaking any rules of behavior. A cisgender female was also in the locker room and did break a rule of behavior. Two females in a female locker room and the one who broke the rules got their membership revoked. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

As for females deserving female spaces - if you want a female-only space you are entirely within your right to create one within your own home or on your own property. But is it really anyone else's obligation to offer you a female space? Does PF have any real obligation to offer you a female space, or do they just have an obligation to offer you a safe space? Is there even any real obligation to offer you a space to change your clothes at all? I mean, if you are so uncomfortable with the way they do it, you can just change at home, or use a different facility all together, or have exercise equipment in your own home so you don't have to leave to workout.

Planet Fitness chooses inclusivity. If you or anyone else has a problem with that you are entirely free to choose to go somewhere else. If any public space doesn't offer you what you feel is your deserved female space you are entirely free to choose to go elsewhere.